log121999

Session Start: Sun Dec 19 20:55:42 1999
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~Informal 2,7Pondering 2,8Chat 2,9Tonight 2,11at 0,129pm 2,13EST~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy. . . . .and so the prize for the first right answer goes to
beka. . . . .greetings, all! smile
RevRandy. . . . .hi there :-)
Elissa. . . . .hey beka!
beka. . . . .smile, hey elissa!
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RevRandy. . . . .hello Mtsea
Mtsea. . . . .hello :)
Elissa. . . . .hi mtsea! good to se you back
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RevRandy. . . . .hello Charles
Elissa. . . . .hi charles
Charles. . . . .I'm new to this, what goes on in this chat?
Elissa. . . . .charles, we have spiritual discussions here and tonight it's informal...anything you want to talk about basically
Charles. . . . .thanks
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Elissa. . . . .you're welcome
beka. . . . .amongst friendly, cogent folks
RevRandy. . . . .we may prompt some discussion along the way with some quotations from Rikkity
RevRandy. . . . .so, beka - all the papers graded?
beka. . . . .yes, bliss. turned in grades last Monday. and am knowing, ahem SOME RELAXATION!!!!!!!!
RevRandy. . . . .ALL RIGHT
beka. . . . .you know, that feeling of "gee what would i LIKE to do this veryminute..."
Elissa. . . . .doesn't it feel wonnnnnnnnnderful beka?
beka. . . . ."time for being..."
RevRandy. . . . .being, not doing
beka. . . . .yeah...
Elissa. . . . .yeah
beka. . . . .did you see our overlapping typing Randy?
RevRandy. . . . .could be there is just one mind here .... shared by too many
beka. . . . .or by just enough?
RevRandy. . . . .yep
Elissa. . . . .now that would be scary lol
beka. . . . .or cosmic
RevRandy. . . . .on the wavelength
RevRandy. . . . .pulsing with the same beat
TF88. . . . .um, that's called "ensemble"
beka. . . . .ensemble? really?
TF88. . . . .well, in music it is LOL
Elissa. . . . .in harmony
RevRandy. . . . .Ladies and gentlemen, the synchronistic ensemble ---
Elissa. . . . .ta-da
Elissa. . . . .everyone singing their own melody
suwan. . . . .or getting in someone else's head!
Elissa. . . . .suwan's good at that lol
RevRandy. . . . .so, let's hear about everybody's holidays
Elissa. . . . .so how have everyone's holiday seasons been so far... besides frantic?
Elissa. . . . .lol randy
RevRandy. . . . .done it again
beka. . . . .smile
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Elissa. . . . .hi light
Light. . . . .heyyyyy guys
beka. . . . .we are SILLY...
Elissa. . . . .yes we is
Light. . . . .can any of u guys help me out a sec and don't laugh at me hahaha
RevRandy. . . . .sure
Elissa. . . . .ok light
Light. . . . .this is goofy
RevRandy. . . . .no more goofy than us
Elissa. . . . .go ahead we're brave
beka. . . . .we be listenin'
Light. . . . .well i bought my daughter and mother in law a bird
Light. . . . .so far so good hahaha
Light. . . . .and i don't know a thing about them
Light. . . . .one is a love bird
Light. . . . .the other is a talking bird called a larakey
Elissa. . . . .awwww
RevRandy. . . . .in the hand they are worth more than in a bush
beka. . . . .alive, that is
Light. . . . .where can i go to get help here
Light. . . . .me big dummy
beka. . . . .the place you bought them, OR the internet
TF88. . . . .aol has a pet site, if you have access to aol
beka. . . . .like hit in "bird" and whatever your main gig right now is... and you'll find it
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Elissa. . . . .hi topsy
Topsy. . . . .Hi everyone
RevRandy. . . . .hi topsy
Light. . . . .my mother in law is pacing
RevRandy. . . . .ok - on the 'net, go to Yahoo, and then ask for a search on pet birds
RevRandy. . . . .is she in a cage
Light. . . . .the bird or the mother in law hahahahaha in a cage that is
RevRandy. . . . .which one is pacing
Light. . . . .i don't know how to take care of them
Light. . . . .i have everything they need but i am worried about tonight
RevRandy. . . . .one stone, two birds, what's the problem
beka. . . . .food, water, lookup "birds, care of."
RevRandy. . . . .BUT SERIOUSLY FOLKS, WELCOME!
RevRandy. . . . .This may be an informal time, but we do want to weigh in with a little structure
Elissa. . . . .welcome all, birds and other physical and spiritual beings :)
Elissa. . . . .let's talk about stuff
RevRandy. . . . .before we start, can we have a moment of decorum
Topsy. . . . .Martha Stewart.com has a section on pets- especially birds
RevRandy. . . . .how to dress them
beka. . . . .was that decorum, or decoration?
Light. . . . .really???
Light. . . . .what does that woman not do
beka. . . . .bad, RR, bad...
Light. . . . .hahahaha
RevRandy. . . . .or was that address them - hello Polly
suwan. . . . .well her husband had a complaint list light, but probably not appropriate here
Light. . . . .u guys are too funny
Light. . . . .i almost bought that one
Elissa. . . . .how to cook them
beka. . . . .back to decorum
beka. . . . .and centering?
RevRandy. . . . .In Decorum , Iowa, ..... wait ....
Elissa. . . . .she probably teaches her birds how to dine at the table and crochet placemats
Topsy. . . . .lol
TF88. . . . .at a festive table, that would be Elissa :)
Light. . . . .hahahaha
Elissa. . . . .definitely festive tf lol
RevRandy. . . . .time to invoke
beka. . . . .like herding cats
Topsy. . . . .with little homemade crowns on their little heads
Elissa. . . . .rofl!!!!!!!!
TF88. . . . .and party favors made of seed
Elissa. . . . .how are we supposed to be serious here when we're laughing so hard randy's contact lesn fell out!!!
Light. . . . .ok ok get a grip here
beka. . . . .guffaw!!!!!!!!
Light. . . . .ahahahaha
beka. . . . .no, randy's now gone to deal with his gas perms
Elissa. . . . .is this informal enough for you guys????
beka. . . . .phew... it's a wonder
RevRandy. . . . .OK - call me deadeye Rev - down to one working orb
Topsy. . . . .Rev- are you a Rev?
beka. . . . .he's awesome. and human, and thoughtful, and down to earth and heartful
Elissa. . . . .they call him one-eye :)
RevRandy. . . . .I am indeed - for real - congregation and all - ordained (27+ years)
Light. . . . .wowy guy
RevRandy. . . . .so, let me invoke and I will deal with my eye problem (or PC, my visual discernment obstruction)
Topsy. . . . .Have you been to Bibletrivia? I bet you would walk away with the prize
RevRandy. . . . .OOOOO, trivia -- OK folks - how many of each kind of animal got on the ark?
RevRandy. . . . .anyway
RevRandy. . . . .calm
RevRandy. . . . .quiet
RevRandy. . . . .peaceful
Light. . . . .wait
Light. . . . .i know this one
Light. . . . .2
Light. . . . .chicken and a egg
RevRandy. . . . .buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
RevRandy. . . . .wrong
RevRandy. . . . .look it up
RevRandy. . . . .2 of many, and 6 of some
beka. . . . .kool! never believe the advertising blurbs, is the moral here
Elissa. . . . .6 geese a-laying?
suwan. . . . .humans?
RevRandy. . . . .but anyway
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RevRandy. . . . .not just - clean animals (by biblical definition) by 6
Elissa. . . . .hi deb!
Deb. . . . .Hi Elissa, Rev, and everyone
RevRandy. . . . .oh dear, ---- next they will want to know about baseball in the bible - in the big inning
Elissa. . . . .tonight on jeopardy, revrandy answers all your questions!!!
beka. . . . .can i insert that ministers are not necessarily main line christian. for example, i'm a unitarian, and that's
beka. . . . .kinda different... we have MANY Sources, but that's for another time...
RevRandy. . . . .main line what, beka
beka. . . . .well, we like to main line questions, and searchings and listenings
RevRandy. . . . .ok - centering time
RevRandy. . . . .pick out a spot of the wall, and concentrate on it
RevRandy. . . . .and even out your breathing
RevRandy. . . . ....
RevRandy. . . . .wait, that's for childbirth
RevRandy. . . . ......
Elissa. . . . .hahahahaha
suwan. . . . .I guess this means I'll have to turn off the tribute to Bob Marley
Elissa. . . . .probably a good idea suwan
RevRandy. . . . .focus on these simple words of invocation
RevRandy. . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . . .Listening to all things musical
RevRandy. . . . .and Guided in all ways gracious. AMEN (Rikkity loved Marley)
Elissa. . . . .amen~
beka. . . . .blessed be
suwan. . . . .amen
TF88. . . . .peace
Topsy. . . . .I just finished a banner for my church
RevRandy. . . . .for the season?
Topsy. . . . .It is 6 feet by 3 feet- hand appliqued and quilted
Elissa. . . . .wow
beka. . . . .what's it say?
Topsy. . . . .It is for Epiphany Sunday
beka. . . . .great notion, epiphany
Topsy. . . . .I will dedicate it in memory of my mom
RevRandy. . . . .ooooo, I want one ... been nudging our arts committee for such - what's on yours
RevRandy. . . . .what a great tribute
Topsy. . . . .I have made 5 others for Advent and Christmas
Topsy. . . . .It was the strangest thing-
beka. . . . .why?
Topsy. . . . .I didn't have any patterns
RevRandy. . . . .no physical patterns
beka. . . . .precisely
Topsy. . . . .but I just started cutting the fabric
Topsy. . . . .and laying it in place- like a puzzle
Topsy. . . . .The first 3 are from the Old Testament prophesies
Topsy. . . . .then the Annunciation
Topsy. . . . .The Nativity
Topsy. . . . .and now Epiphany
Topsy. . . . .I can't draw at all- I am not an artist
Topsy. . . . .but they turned out so beautiful
Topsy. . . . .I believe I was guided
Elissa. . . . .topsy this fits so beautifully what we've been discussing on our message board about choices... your process i mean
Elissa. . . . .you began with just who you were and not with a fixed plan, and in the process of creating you discovered meaning and fulfillment :)
beka. . . . .elissa, what a beautiful way to put it! truth there...
Elissa. . . . .ty beka
beka. . . . .someone quoted Joseph Campbell to me recently on this
Elissa. . . . .i love joseph campbell
beka. . . . ."you must let go of the life you have planned, so to have the life that awaits you."
Elissa. . . . .o yes
Topsy. . . . .Trust is the word for me
beka. . . . .ah trust...
Elissa. . . . .trust is a biggie
Topsy. . . . .I trusted that I would be guided and I was!
Elissa. . . . .wonderful topsy!
Topsy. . . . .I just wish my mother could have seen them all completed
Topsy. . . . .I try to live my life that way too
Topsy. . . . .Some people call it Procrastination- I call it trust!
Elissa. . . . .has anyone else had an experience like that?
beka. . . . .depends what you mean by "like that..."
Elissa. . . . .hmmm... whatever comes to mind beka
beka. . . . .I don't feel that i am "guided" by anything outside myself (as you might imagine)
Elissa. . . . .beka are you guided by anything within yourself?
beka. . . . .yes.
beka. . . . .i will tell you
beka. . . . .it's a feeling of letting go of conscious intention, and letting your whole being engage
beka. . . . .with your task -- for me it is usually writing/language/teaching/scholarship, etc.
beka. . . . .but in that state of complete self engagement, how to say...
beka. . . . .you follow your inclinations and you end up producing and perceiving in ways that
beka. . . . .you could not have intended consciously.
Elissa. . . . .inspiration?
beka. . . . .no, not 'inspiratin', i think i'm trying to describe the details of insight and creativity
RevRandy. . . . .beka - I call that trusting the universe
RevRandy. . . . .and myself
beka. . . . .i call it trusting myself... but then i am part of the universe. or i call it the contribution of my self TO the universe
Elissa. . . . .yes beka, it's all an interaction
RevRandy. . . . .I do not see any separation between the universal, all-that-is, and me
RevRandy. . . . .the two cannot exist without each other
beka. . . . .do you think, RR, that you live in that awareness moment by moment?
RevRandy. . . . .some part of me does - whether I pay attention to it or not - but it takes focus
beka. . . . .interesting... that some part of you does. i can aspire to that.
beka. . . . .usually, i'm only aware of this coterminous state intermittently
RevRandy. . . . .awareness, for me, is notching up the connection to that which is universal in self and in all
beka. . . . .gosh that's interesting... 'notching up the connection...." i will remember this
RevRandy. . . . .since it is always there whenever I focus, I assume it is always there (even when I do not focus)
Elissa. . . . .the more i learn to trust myself and be who i am truly in every situation and with each person, the more i feel that awareness
beka. . . . .that makes very good sense. an assumption that i had not made. but makes sense....
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Elissa. . . . .hey floss
RevRandy. . . . .Hey here
flosshere. . . . .Season's Greetings to all.
Elissa. . . . .and to you
flosshere. . . . .Thank you. What are you chatting about?
RevRandy. . . . .we were just talking about focus on our sense of connection to larger meaning/participation in grander schemes
beka. . . . .why do you think we call it "meaning"?
RevRandy. . . . .and I was (without saying so) about to post a point to ponder, to start some pondering
beka. . . . .ah.. ok
flosshere. . . . .Ready.
Elissa. . . . .o goodie
RevRandy. . . . .(an aside on meaning - as in raising to the point of average understanding what had been not understood before - making it the "mean")
RevRandy. . . . .OK - here goes
RevRandy. . . . .0,1"So listen. Cryptic message: Dogma is not always religious.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1And, in late-breaking news, nothing is new.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1This is about choosing your lessons.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Choose, choose... huh... only if you have unidimensional existences do you have choices like that;
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1but in fields choice is not an issue.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1you proceed through all the opportunities and then the meaning is in the total pattern, not a single choice.
RevRandy. . . . .(I am going to do this is smaller chunks - there will be more to come in a bit)
RevRandy. . . . .(and this, by the way, was one of our most recent communications with Miss Rikkity)
Elissa. . . . .i hear them thinking
RevRandy. . . . .So, if I get this, it says we can see cause and effect of choices only if we think in single dimensional, linear terms
RevRandy. . . . .but in a field of possibilities, a single choice does not predetermine a certain outcome.
beka. . . . .or THAT we see cause/effect of choices because of our linear terms
RevRandy. . . . .yep
Elissa. . . . .good point beka
RevRandy. . . . .If you think linearly, you can always trace back a single path of choices and outcomes
RevRandy. . . . .But you do not know if that is the only path back there
beka. . . . .ya know, i really don't see that as talking about cause and effect... or are you talking about other PTP too..
beka. . . . .choice is different than cause/effect. it has to do with AGENCY...
RevRandy. . . . .I think what she says next may help
Elissa. . . . .hang on beka
beka. . . . .ok
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Ok, try this.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1If it were choice and you were born in Cleveland and died in San Diego,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1then the pattern is a life trip from Cleveland to San Diego.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1But if it is about the 8 months in Pittsburgh and the 10 years back in Cleveland and
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1the 5 years in Kankakee and 0 time in Kansas and 5 years in Florida, then San Diego,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1that's a different picture--much more complex, and not about a choice to move from Cleveland to San Diego.
RevRandy. . . . .....
RevRandy. . . . .hmmm
beka. . . . .chuckle...
beka. . . . .i see one path vs. ALL paths in the PTOP
Elissa. . . . .say more beka
RevRandy. . . . .Yep - one is linear thinking and the other is field thinking
beka. . . . .oh, THAT kind of field... righto... physics and fields point vs. field
RevRandy. . . . .yep - as in web, field, array
beka. . . . .it's like coverage. with the linear, and us thinking about how we live in this life,
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Elissa. . . . .hey kath!
kath. . . . .hi
RevRandy. . . . .hi kath
beka. . . . .its a connect the dots 1 - 2 - 3 kind of thing
RevRandy. . . . .if you know you have points 1 and 2 and 3, can you assume the only path is from 1 to 2 to 3 without knowing if there is a 5, or an 87
beka. . . . .but in the point to ponder, the whole question is about the nature of time, and the influence on our perceptions
beka. . . . .and the idea seems to be that you don't have to choose in a linear way
beka. . . . .indeed CHOICE is a misnomer, cuz we DO EACH path....
RevRandy. . . . .yep!!
Elissa. . . . .more like we BE each path :)
beka. . . . .good o!
RevRandy. . . . .or that all the paths are in us and we in them
beka. . . . .we recognize our being as each path. works since we are in identity with the cosmos, eh?
RevRandy. . . . .yep
RevRandy. . . . .and when we choose (pun) to focus we do so by choosing one path
beka. . . . .and so us human beings invest a LOT in choice...
TF88. . . . .relating this all to music, of course ;)
Elissa. . . . .of course... can you tell us how?
TF88. . . . .sure E
TF88. . . . .to simply play in order notes from the first to the last is lacking substance
TF88. . . . .but when you consider all the textures and how every note related not only to each other
TF88. . . . .but to ALL and their various combinations...then you have substance
TF88. . . . .the piece becomes full
beka. . . . .nice analogy
Elissa. . . . .o good example!!! awesome!
RevRandy. . . . .like it -
TF88. . . . .:)
Elissa. . . . .the whole context is considered, not just the notes... even the whole of music is in the great pieces
RevRandy. . . . .and just because a piece begins on say A and ends on D, does not give you any of the fullness in between
TF88. . . . .I have more, if you want
Elissa. . . . .yes tf
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Elissa. . . . .hey ((((((blue))))))
bluelight. . . . .hi Lissa everbuddy :D
bluelight. . . . .hi RevRandy also
RevRandy. . . . .hi blue
beka. . . . .so what does this suggest about us human beings in our daily lives?
TF88. . . . .no two people will follow the same "path" in the work...so one can also relate their own interpretation
TF88. . . . .to that of each other individuals..
TF88. . . . .as well as to the whole history associated with the work.
TF88. . . . .and then the work is even fuller. there..done
RevRandy. . . . .whoa - I like it TF - so if someone else were trying to follow my life, they couldn't - they could only follow their own version through the web I knew as my life
TF88. . . . .right!
Elissa. . . . .right!!!
Elissa. . . . .as each piece builds on others, just as any research builds on the total body of what is there
TF88. . . . .exactly!
beka. . . . .great stuff
Elissa. . . . .i was saying that to my supervisor the other day... if i tried to be her i'd be doomed to fail before i began
TF88. . . . .and once in awhile, seems like someone reaches a new place
TF88. . . . .and others begin to recognize that there's even more there than they ever realized
RevRandy. . . . .so, if I might extend this, to assume that our assembling of meaning from our experiences is the totality of the meaning there would be presumptuous
Elissa. . . . .o yes, and that the complexity makes us all unique and irreplaceable
RevRandy. . . . .this ties into something else from Rikkity - when she talked about quantum leaps of recognition, wherein no one event or person advanced at a quantum level but suddenly knowledge/understanding went up a big step
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Elissa. . . . .hi dottie
dottie. . . . .hi
RevRandy. . . . .Let me continue with the PtoP .....
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1"So, ask these people if they can identify a moment when they decided to be open to spiritual truths without any precedent events and subsequent events.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Show me the choice, show me the choice--without it being in a field of experiences.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1And how do they know that what they call a choice is all played out and at its fulfillment.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Tell me that... how.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1What they assume was choice and effect may be inconsequential in a larger vision.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1They say, 'I must have chosen these experiences.'
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1How do they know the experiences didn't choose them.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Was my death about you or me, none of us know.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Maybe it was about arfer... rrrr.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1But still our pattern, our field, is enriched-- even by that which was not chosen.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Funny how everyone wants to be the subject, not the object, of the sentence called Life.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Hey, that's egoism of the highest order.
RevRandy. . . . .OK - let's ponder
beka. . . . .humbling
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Elissa. . . . .yep
RevRandy. . . . .hello zee
Elissa. . . . .hi zee
Zee-^j^. . . . .hello everyone
RevRandy. . . . .and of course, it could be the moment we decided to be open to anything -
beka. . . . .which "it"?
RevRandy. . . . .the opening sentence ....
beka. . . . .got it
RevRandy. . . . .I especially resonate with the idea of everyone wanting to be the subject ....
beka. . . . .me too. it's like people who believe in reincarnation are always talking about having been a king or something in a previous live
beka. . . . .instead of being an unknown slave or something.
RevRandy. . . . .I think this is a good example of the western dualism going amok
RevRandy. . . . .we assume that if we are not the subject, we will be the object
kath. . . . .:) me too rev, LOL
Elissa. . . . .right beka... everyone was cleopatra
beka. . . . .EXACTLY...
TF88. . . . .actually beka...most people do not
beka. . . . .yeah, i realized that i may have just offended by saying that.
beka. . . . .but my experience has been that in listening
TF88. . . . .ok...my experience has been the opposite
RevRandy. . . . .hey - in my past lives I have been a transvestite entertainer and a hairy fool, and much else
beka. . . . .far out, RR, you are one courageous dude
RevRandy. . . . .been there, done that, so why not say so ... learned from it all
Elissa. . . . .randy that point about dualism is so important i think... to keep in mind that just because it isn't all one way doesn't mean it is all the other
RevRandy. . . . .that's right - E
Elissa. . . . .(we were talking about that at dinner)
beka. . . . .the issue for subject vs. object is that we see the subject as BETTER, as opposed to both being of EQUAL value
RevRandy. . . . .or that there may be something other than one or the other .....
RevRandy. . . . .is it free will or determinism .... and no other choice?
RevRandy. . . . .a field theory, like R is proposing, gets us around this dilemma
beka. . . . .i'll say, the western bifurcation...
RevRandy. . . . .ooo, someone bifurcated in this chat room
RevRandy. . . . .(sorry)
beka. . . . .oh pardon me! twas I
RevRandy. . . . .but this may be one of the problems at this spiritual level -
RevRandy. . . . .seeing the issue as a dichotomy, not as a multi-pathed function
Elissa. . . . .it's like thinking it's either all about others or all about us
beka. . . . .as a WESTERN problem
beka. . . . .or in this western environment
RevRandy. . . . .I am not so sure that Eastern philosophy does any better with this
beka. . . . .well, zen does, doesn't it?
RevRandy. . . . .it claims to, but it has its own hierarchy of practice, which implies a dualism
beka. . . . .ok
RevRandy. . . . .maybe in pure form, it is lacking in dualism, but in the human world, it has it
RevRandy. . . . .just as I believe Jesus was beyond it, but Christianity is not
RevRandy. . . . .and that is for another time
Elissa. . . . .beyond "it"?
RevRandy. . . . .dualism
Elissa. . . . .ah yes
RevRandy. . . . .and duelism too
Elissa. . . . .lol
kath. . . . .yes but, what is bifurcation?
beka. . . . .to split in two
kath. . . . .oh
kath. . . . .thankyou
Elissa. . . . .nothing obscene kath :)
RevRandy. . . . .or to have two furcks in your house at one time
beka. . . . .no problem
kath. . . . .lol
beka. . . . .you are dangerous, randy
RevRandy. . . . .I hope so
beka. . . . .smiling
RevRandy. . . . .so, let me bring on a final part of the PtoP
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1"It's getting being and doing confused.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1If you are defined by your choices then you are always behind,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1because there are always more things you didn't choose than that you did...
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1unless the field is infinite, and then in infinity no one choice any has meaning does.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1So, a logical problem:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1Stay finite and your choices are meaningless for lack of field,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1or be infinite and the idea of choice is meaningless for lack of context. Get it." (12/17/99)
Elissa. . . . .i'll be back in a minute
*** Elissa is now known as Elissabrb
RevRandy. . . . .(lest you go crazy over the line: no one choice any has meaning does .... we got it that way ... but try hearing it as meaning all jumbled up
RevRandy. . . . .No, try thinking this through in terms of finite and infinite realities
RevRandy. . . . .and it becomes clearer
RevRandy. . . . .(I think,,,, I hope)
beka. . . . .seems to me that the parallel would be "in an infinite field, you can not possibly command the full range of choices... and so you let go of that obligation..."
RevRandy. . . . .yep
RevRandy. . . . .in an infinite field, there are an infinite number of outcomes of any one "choice"
RevRandy. . . . .so there is a vast field out there
RevRandy. . . . .but one in which no one "choice" determines the whole field, but in which all the "choices" and all the "non-choices" make up the field
*** shawnee (ADCjava@***.tnt1.det3.da.uu.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .hi shawnee
shawnee. . . . .hi rev
RevRandy. . . . .so, TF - how's this for you?
TF88. . . . .fine randy
RevRandy. . . . .good
beka. . . . .do you all focus on the issue of this choice determining paths? in your interp of this Point?
RevRandy. . . . .One of the problems I keep having in dealing with traditional religious thinking when it comes in contact with this kind of spirituality
RevRandy. . . . .that problem is that religion usually takes the position of the infinite
RevRandy. . . . .of the spirit of all being beyond limit
RevRandy. . . . .of the endless one
RevRandy. . . . .of the boundless sense of all creation
RevRandy. . . . .and then into that infinite non-mold, religion pour a finite concoction.
beka. . . . .aha! oxymoronic, nearly, oil and vinegar! ice and heat!
RevRandy. . . . .and tells us that it has gelled in a certain form
beka. . . . .oh, that is in contradiction to the very notion of infinity?
RevRandy. . . . .in an infinite and infinitely complex field of being, we are told to think of cause and effect
RevRandy. . . . .which is not consistent with it - exactly
beka. . . . .so you got a notion of human finitude, and cosmic infinity...
beka. . . . .and traditional religion can't get the idea of humans BEING infinite, or PART OF the very INFINITY that IS the cosmos
*** Elissabrb is now known as Elissa
Elissa. . . . .now i have to catch up
RevRandy. . . . .so if one believes that the nature of spiritual existence is infinite, how come we get so tied up in the finite notion of cause and effect, and especially choice
kath. . . . .because we are being....it is a part of our experience
RevRandy. . . . .yes - that is the tension ... again another dualism ... the divine is infinite but we are finite, yet we are intrinsically intertwined
kath. . . . .yes
RevRandy. . . . .if we think of ourselves as being, kath, and not just doing, we move beyond that
RevRandy. . . . .IMHO
beka. . . . .interesting...
RevRandy. . . . .being is about openness to the whole field, doing is about one linear track on that field
kath. . . . .the tension is a part of our experience, it belongs
kath. . . . .i am not referring to my perception, just honoring the experience
RevRandy. . . . .I feel that the tension is part of our spiritual existence, and its resolution may be what we are here about .... and in its resolution is our ability to move on
TF88. . . . .ah, another thing to relate to music...without tension, it's meaningless :)
RevRandy. . . . .dynamic tension as a great mode to growth when it stimulates, but does not bind
Elissa. . . . .there may be a distinction to be made here between having tension and focusing on it
RevRandy. . . . .E - will you say some more about focus ....
Elissa. . . . .hmmmmm...ok randy wants a break lol
Elissa. . . . .focus is where we put our energy, while tension is one way it is expressed
Elissa. . . . .we can have tension and recognize it as part of our experience, but when we focus on it it can prevent us from being in other ways
Elissa. . . . .does that make sense?
TF88. . . . .yes
kath. . . . .yes
Elissa. . . . .same thing with dualism, same thing with choice...
beka. . . . .so, how can you both 'be' and accomplish what we need to in our work lives?
RevRandy. . . . .knowing how to focus and recognise our focus, beka, I think
Elissa. . . . .if we focus on choice we miss the rest of the field...it isn't :bad" or "wrong"... it just keeps us from perceiving and experiencing all that we might
TF88. . . . .I think it has to do with "being" being our main focus whatever we happen to be doing.
RevRandy. . . . .Yes, TF ...
Elissa. . . . .yes tf
TF88. . . . .since what we "do" is not who we "are", we might as well be who we are when we are doing.
Elissa. . . . .beka there isn't anything wrong with having goals and plans, but they need to express who we are i believe
beka. . . . .this reminds me of how i come to understand something confusing
RevRandy. . . . .how beka
Elissa. . . . .yes beka! i think i know what you mean
beka. . . . .instead of trying to reason (say relationship things) through... i let an emerging nearly recognition of what something is come to the fore in me
RevRandy. . . . .great!
Elissa. . . . .exactly
RevRandy. . . . .remember any reasoning we do is always a product of what has been ...
beka. . . . .so i can not WILL an understanding, but i can allow it to emerge, and be open to knowing that it isn't there yet but is perking. and it will and does emerge
Elissa. . . . .yes, and when we express who we are through what we do our energy level rises, doesn't it
beka. . . . .yes, it does. heart commitment
RevRandy. . . . .that requires a trusting, and a focusing
Elissa. . . . .right...we cannot CHOOSE to understand
Elissa. . . . .otherwise we'd all know it all!!!
kath. . . . .TF is that like "keeping it real" or "keep it simple"
kath. . . . .no its not,
kath. . . . .keep doesn't fit with be
kath. . . . .but there is something elemental in all of this pondering
beka. . . . .whatchu thinkin' of, kath?
Elissa. . . . .right kath
RevRandy. . . . .Ask someone about themselves, and listen to what they tell you .... they will, by their response, tell you if they are being or doing
RevRandy. . . . .do they speak of actions, or roles, or ideas, or dreams
*** DJ (ADCjava@***.baden1.pa.home.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . . .hi DJ
DJ. . . . .Hi Elissa
RevRandy. . . . .Hello DJ
TF88. . . . .hi DJ
DJ. . . . .Hi RevRandy and TF88
beka. . . . .can you give an example of someone who self describes as BEING... so ideas and dreams are being?
RevRandy. . . . .I have met people who tell me, in response to that, that they are wondering about something,
RevRandy. . . . .or they put down a book they are reading suddenly and say "This just reminded of an idea".
RevRandy. . . . .or at the end of a great musical piece (played or heard) they don't say what they heard, they just say Ahhhhhhhhhh
Elissa. . . . .beka if someone asked you who you are, what would you say
beka. . . . .oh, boy... that's a huge question... talk about pondering...
kath. . . . .in the experience
Elissa. . . . .ok, let's ask everyone that question
TF88. . . . .usually though E, when we are asked that question it's by an angry mother who says, "Just who do you think you are???"
Elissa. . . . .lol tf
Elissa. . . . .unfortunately that's true
RevRandy. . . . .and the response is "My mother's daughter!"
TF88. . . . .nope...sorry...that's not who we are randy :)
RevRandy. . . . .but it put them back on their heels
beka. . . . .thank you tf88
beka. . . . .feels weird, that question, eh? (am thinking.... stuff emerging... depends on who asks... but you, elissa...)
Elissa. . . . .:)
beka. . . . .ready?
Elissa. . . . .i ask people that a lot.. yep
beka. . . . .i am a person who lives inside attention. I am PRESENT with others, and attempt to allow their words and beings to come in me
beka. . . . .at the same time, i have a commitment to help lessen the pain in this world, and to foster strength in the world.
beka. . . . .as a teacher, I do that with my students and language,
beka. . . . .helping unbind the rejection and anger that accrues to say, dialect prejudice. so I am committed to helping people find a whole way of being with others and selves, in their own capacities
beka. . . . .that's part of who i am, and likely enough for the moment.
Elissa. . . . .cool :) good example of being in context
RevRandy. . . . .TY beka
beka. . . . .thanks for your indulgence
Elissa. . . . .clap clap clap
Elissa. . . . .next?
RevRandy. . . . .I would probably tell you about many points of my being
RevRandy. . . . .and ask you to tell me what you see
RevRandy. . . . .knowing that I am but a web strung across events and places
RevRandy. . . . .held together by thought
Elissa. . . . .the question is who are you? are you how others see you?
RevRandy. . . . .I am both
RevRandy. . . . .I and the other, once in contact, once in conversation, cannot be separated (the old exclusion principle)
RevRandy. . . . .so I am myself, and in the answering I am also with you
Elissa. . . . .what points of your being would you mention as primary for you?
RevRandy. . . . .tonight, right now, I would answer a cool summer's eve in a canoe on Cedar Lake,
RevRandy. . . . .and a moment-turned-hours
RevRandy. . . . .in an emergency room in Newport News
RevRandy. . . . .and soft leaf-walking in Virginia,
RevRandy. . . . .and hours in dark-room labs
RevRandy. . . . .and the feel of a railroad throttle in my hands
RevRandy. . . . .the same hands that play an accordion
RevRandy. . . . .and birthed my youngest
Elissa. . . . .aren't those "doings"?
RevRandy. . . . .and between all of those, a stringing of thought .... of being, of meaning, that transcends the events
beka. . . . .yikes!
RevRandy. . . . .that's who I am
RevRandy. . . . .just answering the question, mam
beka. . . . .i like the simplicity or should i say "simplicity"
shawnee. . . . .so whats your point?????....:)
Elissa. . . . .shawnee, the point is that we need to know who we are if we are to BE rather than just DO... if we are to exist within the field of opportunity and find meaning
kath. . . . .this is trite but true, i am a spiritual being having a human experience and for today it is time to rest this body and mind....good nite
kath. . . . .dear friends, good nite
RevRandy. . . . .nite Kath
TF88. . . . .night kath!
Elissa. . . . .nite dear kath. love you!
kath. . . . .(((((((room)))))
kath. . . . .love you
TF88. . . . .Randy, I'm not sure I understand any more clearly who you are though
RevRandy. . . . .TF - the pattern would enlarge with time ... I would hope .... til you didn't need the points and could sense the thoughts
beka. . . . .but aren't both equal in the being?
RevRandy. . . . .for I am those thoughts, those awareness, those insights, which arose from those times and places, but are more than them
TF88. . . . .but isn't that all of us?
RevRandy. . . . .yes - but mine may be different than yours ....
beka. . . . .his PARTICULAR experiences...
beka. . . . .i gotta say how incredibly beautiful and freeing your description was RR
RevRandy. . . . .ty
RevRandy. . . . .for example, to say that I love .... without knowing the context of that love, ... is to not know me
TF88. . . . .yes, randy, i understand that
RevRandy. . . . .but to know the particulars and not know the feeling would be empty as well
beka. . . . .ying/yang
RevRandy. . . . .I refuse the dualism - I am both - being and doing
beka. . . . .ah, ok
Elissa. . . . .who are you, TF?
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TF88. . . . .I feel that at the center of my core, the truest of who I am is a compassionate soul
TF88. . . . .who deeply feels injustice, no matter who is at the receiving end of that injustice
TF88. . . . .the rest of who I am, I am figuring out :)
beka. . . . .that's a pretty wonderful core
Elissa. . . . .being in context again :) lovely
RevRandy. . . . .may you figure it out, and then have more to figure out ....
*** DancingLeaves (dancing920@***.cp-tel.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . . .hi dl
RevRandy. . . . .hey dl
DancingLeaves. . . . .hi elissa
DancingLeaves. . . . .hi rev
Elissa. . . . .we're talking about who we are
DancingLeaves. . . . .thanks for the update
Elissa. . . . .how about you, shawnee? feeling brave?
shawnee. . . . .no, just being more confused. it seems your taking something simple and purposely confusing it
RevRandy. . . . .yep - been known to do that
beka. . . . .how about 'exploring it'
Elissa. . . . .confusing it how, shawnee?
TF88. . . . .it IS confusing shawnee...I understand how you feel
Elissa. . . . .it can be especially confusing when we are so used to defining ourselves in terms of others
Elissa. . . . .or in terms of roles
shawnee. . . . .rev. speaks of the characteristics of the living god that is within all of us. but he is using the souls identity as the who am i. both are one with the all but separate in personality
RevRandy. . . . .say more
shawnee. . . . .why
beka. . . . .cuz we're interested!
shawnee. . . . .in other words, just keep it simple
RevRandy. . . . .ok
Elissa. . . . .shawnee, we are not separate from all. each of us is a part of the whole and contain the whole within us... that's pretty simple
Elissa. . . . .it's just a different perspective from the one you usually hear, probably
TF88. . . . .I think shawnee means individual, yet still connected...at least that's what I think
shawnee. . . . .elissa we are the whole. butttt we are separate by soul identification. otherwise we are nothing but one with one thought and one energy
Elissa. . . . .there's that dualism again
RevRandy. . . . .but what about when what has appeared simply true suddenly becomes more complex than I have known .... I can't reduce it to the same simple terms anymore.... I have to wrestle with the angel of complexity then
TF88. . . . .and then that complexity will appear simple
RevRandy. . . . .eventually TF. yes
TF88. . . . .see...I'm telling you...this is all classical music! LOL
Elissa. . . . .everything is connected, tf :)
RevRandy. . . . .I know, I know ..... but what have Schonberg?
TF88. . . . .even schonberg...not complex once you understand :)
RevRandy. . . . .can we be both, shawnee, at the same time?
Elissa. . . . .i am unique, a part of all that only i can be... and at the same time i participate in the larger reality
shawnee. . . . .rev. are you familiar with the borg on star trek?
RevRandy. . . . .no - I am not a trekkie
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RevRandy. . . . .sorry
Elissa. . . . .hi em
Em. . . . .hello, elissa!
TF88. . . . .shawnee, I know borg and I understand what you are saying...we are still individuals, although all connected as one
RevRandy. . . . .But what I feel is that it doesn't need to be either individual nor collective, it can be both without conflict
TF88. . . . .yes, it can...I think we were just asking about that individual part of you tonight Randy ;)
TF88. . . . .and got confused when the big picture was included
shawnee. . . . .we can be individuals as in soul identity or participate in the group as a whole. can do both or remain separate by choice when we want
beka. . . . .i'm gonna hafta sign off and go to bed... thank you for a wonderful sharing this evening
TF88. . . . .night beka
Elissa. . . . .thank you beka!
RevRandy. . . . .while the borg comes on line, the individual (and collective) Rev, who has been up since 6am must go
RevRandy. . . . .nite beka, nite all
beka. . . . .smiles
shawnee. . . . .hes escaping
RevRandy. . . . .no .... I am still connected.... just not cyberly
Elissa. . . . .nite randy :)
Elissa. . . . .will someone tell me about borg please?
TF88. . . . .the borg are truly all one mind...completely connected despite separate bodies
TF88. . . . .the thoughts of one are the thoughts of all
Elissa. . . . .ah i see
*** RevRandy (bishopbeck@***.lft.widomaker.com) has left #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . . .sort of like probable selves?
shawnee. . . . .see how simple that was. don't make it so difficult and things will go better
TF88. . . . .:)
TF88. . . . .yes, however, what is simple to one might still be complex to another...
TF88. . . . .I had to dig out my dictionary tonight...bifurcated...geez
shawnee. . . . .that's their problem....:)
Elissa. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .shawnee, we're not all having the same thoughts lol
shawnee. . . . .just wanted to see if there was any humor in this room
Em. . . . .:)
* TF88 says over here!
shawnee. . . . .we see you tf
Elissa. . . . .o i don't think humor is something we have a problem with here!!!
TF88. . . . .you must have missed the beginning when we are all wetting our pants
bluelight. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .yes, we had some trouble getting serious tonight lol
Em. . . . .I've got a FAR SIDE sense of humor,
Elissa. . . . .em, you fit right in then!
Em. . . . .borg, part human, part machine
TF88. . . . .well, borg is part every entity
Elissa. . . . .well folks, i'm heading out... thanks for the great discussion and the wonderful energy here tonight! please stay and chat.
Em. . . . .Bye, Elissa!
bluelight. . . . .awww Elissa
TF88. . . . .I'm heading out too
shawnee. . . . .bye ellissa
TF88. . . . .night everyone!
shawnee. . . . .night tf
TF88. . . . .light and love
bluelight. . . . .nite nite
Elissa. . . . .sorry blue :) love you all!
* Em : Goodnight everyone!
bluelight. . . . .is ok :D
bluelight. . . . .nite all ..
Session Close: Sun Dec 19 23:14:55 1999