11/21/1999 - OVER THE RAINBOW

Session Start: Sun Nov 21 20:54:46 1999
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~Over 2,7the 2,8Rainbow 2,9Tonight 2,11at 2,129pm 2,13EST~ 2,0Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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Elissa. . . .hi blarney
RevRandybrb. . . .hi blarney
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blarney. . . .hi everyone
blarney. . . .whats the topic tonight?
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Elissa. . . .we're doing an overview of spiritual persistence
RevRandy. . . .hey suwan
suwan. . . .Hi guys
Elissa. . . .((((((suwan)))))) my playmate!
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Deni. . . .hihihihihihihi
RevRandy. . . .hi Deni
Deni. . . .hi Rev
Deni. . . .hi Lissa- poo
suwan. . . .hi deni pie!
blarney. . . .hi Deni
Deni. . . .hey suwanie!!!
Deni. . . .hi blarney
Elissa. . . .(((((deni-face)))))) i missed you
Deni. . . .awwwww....thanks :)
Elissa. . . .i'm working on an interesting research paper
Deni. . . .what about E?
Elissa. . . .medicating grief
Deni. . . .ahhhh..that would be GOOD ONE
blarney. . . .oh that sounds good
Elissa. . . .it's amazing how much misinformation is out there about the grief process
Elissa. . . .people getting medicated for feeling angry or for seeing/hearing their loved ones
suwan. . . .well you know Elissa, I have not met one single person who understood it who had not been through it
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blarney. . . .I know, my kids think I have lost it
Elissa. . . .it seems that not even the medical community understands it
suwan. . . .including grief counselors (my own sister)
Elissa. . . .yep
RevRandy. . . .hi TF and jem
Elissa. . . .hey TF and jem
TF88. . . .hi everyone
jem. . . .hi all
Deni. . . .hi jem
suwan. . . .hi jem
RevRandy. . . .folks, it's time to start
blarney. . . .sounds good
RevRandy. . . .so Deni, put that down and pay attention
Elissa. . . .lol
RevRandy. . . .I saw that suwan
Deni. . . .lol
RevRandy. . . .can't you behave better, like blarney here
RevRandy. . . .that's better
suwan. . . .we're unruly, it's true
blarney. . . .I'm not always so good
RevRandy. . . .OK
RevRandy. . . .before we start for the night, let's get the mood right
RevRandy. . . .so, quiet
RevRandy. . . .peaceful
RevRandy. . . .calm
RevRandy. . . .and these words of invocation
RevRandy. . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . .and guided in all ways gracious. Amen
Deni. . . .Amen
Elissa. . . .aaaaamen~
blarney. . . .amen
TF88. . . .peace
RevRandy. . . .Tonight we will be doing a retrospective
RevRandy. . . .a look at all the colors of our SP rainbow
RevRandy. . . .with one Point to Ponder from each color
RevRandy. . . .and therefore, I am not going to speak (or pontificate as some would say) more than others
RevRandy. . . .this will be a time for all of us to say what we see going on in each piece
RevRandy. . . .we will break at 10 for a few minutes
RevRandy. . . .and before our 11pm ET end, we have a special T'giving message
RevRandy. . . .so, are we ready?
Elissa. . . .yes!
blarney. . . .yes
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RevRandy. . . .OK
RevRandy. . . . 4,1ENERGY
RevRandy. . . . 4,1"Hitler rose to power through his sick views and the cooperation of good people.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1He created the evil design, but it took the energy taken from good to make it realised.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Being good is not enough. Choosing the direction of life is the important thing.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Good that is not focused serves to energize evil.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1"If all people were intentional about their good, evil could not be empowered.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Evil is more the construction of good left unfocused than of the clustered bad.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Without the energy of good, the bad would soon self-destruct--like a gang of bad guys.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Without external forces, the gang will fight each other and destroy itself.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Gangs are unstable. Evil is, too. It takes enormous energy to create stability.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1Bad does not have the sustaining energy to do that. It needs external energy.
RevRandy. . . . 4,1(10/3/95 - R#3)
RevRandy. . . .So, what do y'all see in this Point FOR YOU
TF88. . . .it brought a scenario to my mind
RevRandy. . . .(Come on, don't be bad guys) yes TF
TF88. . . .if the gang killed all others and then turned on themselves..
TF88. . . .until finally one lone soul was left...
TF88. . . .would he feel like he won? With no one left to see his power, he would feel powerless
RevRandy. . . .good thought
RevRandy. . . .there have been some plays about people like that, not finding someone else to show off to, taking their own lives
Elissa. . . .if he was a bad guy then he fights in order to gain power and energy...
Elissa. . . .so he begins by feeling powerless
Elissa. . . .i think
TF88. . . .and ends by feeling powerless too
Elissa. . . .yes, since he can't get it from anyone else
RevRandy. . . .that energy that evil takes in does not sustain it - and it always needs more
RevRandy. . . .like bullies, who have to keep finding new victims
RevRandy. . . .I also keep reminding myself that my lack of intention about good also helps evil find empowerment
RevRandy. . . .rather than fight evil, proclaim good
Wal. . . .Jesus said resist not evil
Wal. . . .To go against the bad gives gives bad power
Elissa. . . .yes wal
RevRandy. . . .yes Wal, - exactly
RevRandy. . . .but we move on (this is SP rapid fire)
RevRandy. . . . 7,1LIVING AND ENJOYING
RevRandy. . . . 7,1"So for tonight's lesson: if one focuses life on praise, then one focuses
RevRandy. . . . 7,1and misses the reality of the divine presence within. It ain't
RevRandy. . . . 7,1out there if it ain't in here. And if you truly know it in here, then you
RevRandy. . . . 7,1don't praise it, you seek to live it and know it and remember it. That's all
RevRandy. . . . 7,1and so simple, too. It is never separate. Nothing of value or worthy of
RevRandy. . . . 7,1praise is ever separate--it is one with all. So don't say, 'Praise Allah,
RevRandy. . . . 7,1this tuna sandwich is good.' Just say, 'This tuna sandwich is good,' and the
RevRandy. . . . 7,1rest is implied by reality." (1/23/99 - O#34)
RevRandy. . . .hmmmm, so it is not proclaiming what is out there, but what is inside
RevRandy. . . .but, what do y'all see
RevRandy. . . .yes - you in the corner - what did you want to say
Elissa. . . .any thoughts?
TF88. . . .I guess it's the old give for the sake of giving, not for the thanks (that idea which is so much harder to do than to say)
RevRandy. . . .And see ourselves as agents of the good
RevRandy. . . .without the need for recognition
Elissa. . . .and receive for the sake of receiving, not to feel obligated
TF88. . . .yes elissa
RevRandy. . . .if we have anything else, then a power relationship is set up, and then where would that lead but to some flowing of power
RevRandy. . . .in one direction only
Elissa. . . .saying thank you is wonderful, i believe, but to think that everything received is a gift is to deny something about our own value and worth
TF88. . . .yes, elissa, good point
Elissa. . . .notice i'm not saying thank you, TF :)
TF88. . . .lol
RevRandy. . . .I like the concept of grace - something which comes as part of being alive, being ourselves, blessing us but without either specific merit or obligation
RevRandy. . . .but this is hard to do ..... since all of us (IMHO) have some measure of need for energy from others
RevRandy. . . .we are working on it, but we are not there yet
Elissa. . . .it gets easier with practice, but it does take being mindful
TF88. . . .but it can be shared and then prosper, without just giving back and forth
Elissa. . . .yes, tf!
RevRandy. . . .1 plus 1 can equal more than 2
Elissa. . . .and what we have within is shared with everyone we connect with
Elissa. . . .whether we want to or not :)
RevRandy. . . .whether we choose to or not
Elissa. . . .lol
RevRandy. . . .lol
Elissa. . . .unless we're really good at putting on masks, which is self- defeating in the end
RevRandy. . . .masks that do not let our energy out also keep other shared energy from coming in
Elissa. . . .definitely, and we cannot receive what we need that way
RevRandy. . . .we really hide from ourselves
Elissa. . . .sometimes
RevRandy. . . .or not
Wal. . . .When you give away love it is made stronger in us
RevRandy. . . .good example
Elissa. . . .yes wal, when those it is given to are able to receive it
TF88. . . .although sometimes masks are needed for protection...until a safe place is found
Elissa. . . .yes tf. that's another kind of mask
RevRandy. . . .OK - moving along in our journey of SP
RevRandy. . . . 8,1"You can't and shouldn't live without a past.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1If you give up things you'd rather forget, you also give up what you should remember.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1"Just as it is not good to live only in the present, it is not good to be obsessed with the past. Balance.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1Live today, remembering yesterday, and dreaming of tomorrow.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1But don't live by yesterday's losses or tomorrow's promises.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1How can you learn and remember if you live like you forget.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1If your memories are just painful, you have not yet learned.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1"Do you want to throw out the past. No. Ok, then integrate it into life.
RevRandy. . . . 8,1Don't measure everything by what was, but also value what was. Ponder this." (4/14/96 - Y#10)
TF88. . . .I like that PtoP :)
Elissa. . . .:)
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RevRandy. . . .Hi Ky
Elissa. . . .hey ky!
TF88. . . .hi ky
kybear. . . .wow evening all what a greeting thanks.. :)
Wal. . . .You are the result of all you have known and seen and also the result of your future
RevRandy. . . .I like that Wal -
Elissa. . . .do that one again randy
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Elissa. . . .hi zee
zee. . . .hi Elissa, everyone
RevRandy. . . . 1,8"You can't and shouldn't live without a past.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8If you give up things you'd rather forget, you also give up what you should remember.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8"Just as it is not good to live only in the present, it is not good to be obsessed with the past. Balance.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8Live today, remembering yesterday, and dreaming of tomorrow.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8But don't live by yesterday's losses or tomorrow's promises.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8How can you learn and remember if you live like you forget.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8If your memories are just painful, you have not yet learned.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8"Do you want to throw out the past. No. Ok, then integrate it into life.
RevRandy. . . . 1,8Don't measure everything by what was, but also value what was. Ponder this." (4/14/96 - Y#10)
RevRandy. . . .it is the juggling act of remembering not being ruled by the past
RevRandy. . . .informed free will I guess
RevRandy. . . .but what else do you see there?
Elissa. . . .if your memories are painful and you try to avoid them, you are keeping yourself from learning. been there, done that :)
RevRandy. . . .it is that balancing act, again
TF88. . . .it is by bringing the past into the present that we can more fully live the present moment
suwan. . . .well I don't know how to react to any of it
suwan. . . .I am so far out of balance on this that I can't imagine being in balance
Elissa. . . .((((((suwan))))))
RevRandy. . . .how so, suwan
kybear. . . .and there are times that the present doesn't allow you to move from the past.
Wal. . . .You progress more through a painful time than a easy ride.
RevRandy. . . .But, sometimes it is hard to get the courage to get on board
Elissa. . . .it's very hard to remember without pain, but if all you remember is painful that's what needs to be worked on
TF88. . . .I think wal, it's more of learning how to make the painful time an easy ride
Elissa. . . .acceptance is a key
RevRandy. . . .and a sort of radical openness
Wal. . . .If you know the truth then everything is O.K.
Elissa. . . .and a trust that all will be meaningful when we can see the larger picture
Wal. . . .Its coming to the big picture that makes sense of it all
kybear. . . .but if one is remembering the good and processing that which your perceived as bad but are always being reminded of the bad how does one find balance?
RevRandy. . . .we don't find balance IMHO by going around the bad, but by passing through it. Going around requires us to make an unnatural balance, while going through leads us to a more natural balance
Elissa. . . .maybe by focusing on how we've grown through the bad experiences, ky?
Elissa. . . .with hope that there is more ahead
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kybear. . . .does that not depend on the situation? as to how to process thru the bad? if the bad keeps coming at you on a weekly basis?
RevRandy. . . .hi Marie
Elissa. . . .hey marie
Marie1. . . .hi
Marie1. . . .hey elissa
RevRandy. . . .(((((ky)))))))))
TF88. . . .and by observing what we went through, rather than reliving it as we remember it
RevRandy. . . .good point TF
kybear. . . .agreed tf..
kybear. . . .but then there is that BUT!
Elissa. . . .yes, ky, that makes it very hard for you to get any perspective. i think in those cases we just need to be very gentle with ourselves
RevRandy. . . .probably a marker in our growth when we remember rather than relive
TF88. . . .true randy
RevRandy. . . .and that happens on different timetables for different people
kybear. . . .well the calgon take me away baths don't help much any more ... LOL
Elissa. . . .some people find it helpful to keep a journal so they can look back and see the progress and growth
RevRandy. . . .ah - Rikkity has, once again, opened up so much .... but we move on
RevRandy. . . . 0,3"Now about change. Most people resist change, but one thing worse is getting
RevRandy. . . . 0,3shortchanged; and that is what you get when you resist the natural change.
RevRandy. . . . 0,3If change is to come into your life, embrace it all. You don't want just
RevRandy. . . . 0,3some. For example, my death without this. Too many, finding themselves in
RevRandy. . . . 0,3change, stop halfway and say, 'I can't take anymore.' Hey, if you are
RevRandy. . . . 0,3crossing a river it doesn't do any good to stop in the middle. So, realize
RevRandy. . . . 0,3the great fear is really that it won't change enough, and that fear keeps us
RevRandy. . . . 0,3from being open to enough change. Hmmm...I'm smart. Those who suffer change
RevRandy. . . . 0,3don't let it play out. Like people who have to leave somewhere or something
RevRandy. . . . 0,3and then don't reestablish themselves elsewhere or with something else. Ok,
RevRandy. . . . 0,3that's it.
RevRandy. . . . 0,3"You know you haven't let it play out when the pain of loss is greater than
RevRandy. . . . 0,3the reward of change. Like when you are getting change and you tell you are
RevRandy. . . . 0,3getting shorted, but then at last the needed dollar drops and the equation
RevRandy. . . . 0,3is equal. Then you can walk away in balance. Look, if each time you had a
RevRandy. . . . 0,3transaction you lost a dime, it might not seem like much; but each year
RevRandy. . . . 0,3you'd be down a couple hundred buckos. And that is also what some do. They
RevRandy. . . . 0,3let themselves get shortchanged just a wee wittle tad, and say it's ok; but,
RevRandy. . . . 0,3over time they lose lots and don't know why they feel so shortchanged by
RevRandy. . . . 0,3life. So, go." (8/16/99 - G#55)
Elissa. . . .sounds like an answer to your question, ky :)
RevRandy. . . .(unplanned by us) thanks Rikkity
Elissa. . . . "So, realize the great fear is really that it won't change enough, and that fear keeps us from being open to enough change."
Wal. . . .Change is the only thing that is certain
Elissa. . . .true
kybear. . . .oh i have no problem with the change dear. change can be most wonderful. it's that parts of the past that refuses to change i'm having trouble with..
RevRandy. . . .so, can you go back and change it (so to speak), make peace with it
kybear. . . .i wish Rev but parts of the past continue to attack the present so it's hard to make peace when there is no protection
Wal. . . .Forgive others and yourself
RevRandy. . . .but that all may have to remain a goal, not a reality - and what we need to know is that we are focusing in the right direction, even if we don't get there right now
RevRandy. . . .not ignoring the past, but being in the present, and focusing in the ways and the direction we want to go and which will give us the comfort to go there
Elissa. . . .our perception of the past can change as we find new things in ourselves, but the past won't change if we are stuck
Elissa. . . .ky, i think that right now you need to focus on being kind and patient with yourself
RevRandy. . . .but it is time to move on again
RevRandy. . . . 0,2TIME
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"About probable realities. It's a math concept. At any point in time there
RevRandy. . . . 0,2are infinite probable realities. We just know one. Here's an image: a point
RevRandy. . . . 0,2of light...just one, not thousands. From that point, the light goes out in
RevRandy. . . . 0,2many directions. One probable reality is that it lights this page; another
RevRandy. . . . 0,2is that it is seen from Mars; another is that it is swallowed up by a black
RevRandy. . . . 0,2hole, etc. All true, all equally probable; but in your existence you follow
RevRandy. . . . 0,2just one strand of possibilities. Sequence, not time. You see ABCDE, but
RevRandy. . . . 0,2there also could be a ZYXW or a REDQ or a NJHG or a ASKU5. All sequences,
RevRandy. . . . 0,2all equally possible and probable--even if the sequence is ABCDE. It's not
RevRandy. . . . 0,2about time. We have probable selves.
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"Here's another one. In numbers you have evens and odds; all numbers are one
RevRandy. . . . 0,2or the other, in your thinking. But maybe there are others, which your
RevRandy. . . . 0,2thinking doesn't know, but which are just as real. Just because you have ten
RevRandy. . . . 0,2fingers doesn't make ten the base of all realities. It adds to All That
RevRandy. . . .
RevRandy. . . . 0,2Is--not personal, but collective. And some day, so to speak, we may unite
RevRandy. . . . 0,2with a parallel self that took a road not taken by us. We move in realities
RevRandy. . . . 0,2with many of 'us'es but we don't notice because most don't look like us
RevRandy. . . . 0,2physically, only spiritually. Ponder that...or not." (4/20/99 - B#31)
RevRandy. . . .so, we get complex -
Elissa. . . .imagine meeting another 'me' LOL
Elissa. . . .and according to this, we do that all the time and don't know it
Marie1. . . .ooooo
Elissa. . . .awesome
RevRandy. . . .I once saw another me - on the other side of a hockey arena
RevRandy. . . .but when I got there, he was gone
Elissa. . . .but it doesn't have to look like you physically...only spiritually
Elissa. . . .we could all be the same person lol
RevRandy. . . .I know, I know
Elissa. . . .scary thought
RevRandy. . . .but some days I am not myself
RevRandy. . . .what do the rest of you see (while E and I banter)
Elissa. . . .did anyone see the movie "sliding doors"?
Wal. . . .The truth is we are all one but we keep forgetting
RevRandy. . . .all parts of the same field(s)
Elissa. . . .all parts of the grand universal web
Wal. . . .Just Love complete in itself but we forget that also.
Elissa. . . .ky and suwan put down those coloring books and join us
kybear. . . .lol lissa
Elissa. . . .:)
RevRandy. . . .it is interesting to me that we use time to keep things apart when it may be the thing that actually binds things together
Elissa. . . .say more randy
RevRandy. . . .we use time as a measurement tool to make past, present, and future, but when time is seen not as units (seconds, days) but as a fiber, a thread, then it binds together
RevRandy. . . .it is a road map of relation
Wal. . . .All time is one just as there is only this universe, no outside of creation
RevRandy. . . .yep - a big all-encompassing strip of passage
kybear. . . .i just dont see that some of what you say can help me at all and that is reality.
Elissa. . . .ky, not everything we say is necessarily going to be meaningful for you right now. just take what is and maybe ponder some more when you feel moved to do so
Elissa. . . .i appreciate your honesty ky
RevRandy. . . .ky - I remember a time (not so long ago) when things I find meaningful (or even understand) now were beyond me
Elissa. . . .that was last week lol
RevRandy. . . .I thought it was 8pm ET tonight
Elissa. . . .sometimes people think they have to get it all at once. i know that hasn't been true for me!
RevRandy. . . .still a work in progress (in progress I hope!)
RevRandy. . . .but speaking of time, it is time for our break
kybear. . . .ok brb gotta take puppy out :)
RevRandy. . . .back in 8.764 minutes (or thereabouts) with more formal discussion -now is the time for those coloring books
Elissa. . . .ok break time
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*** Elissa is now known as Elissabrb
RevRandy. . . .hello Tayler
Tayler. . . .Hello all!
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RevRandy. . . .and hi bunny
bunny. . . .hi
RevRandy. . . .we are on a short break - and then we will be back at it in full steam
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Marie1. . . .hi carol
Carol. . . .hi everyone
Tayler. . . .Hi Carol
*** RevRandybrb is now known as RevRandy
RevRandy. . . .hi Carol
Marie1. . . .welcome back rev
RevRandy. . . .it was a long trip, but I made it (lol)
Marie1. . . .how is everyone doing
Marie1. . . .sorry i missed the first part...
* Marie1 handing her late slip over :)
RevRandy. . . .in the first part we revealed the meaning of life
Marie1. . . .glad you did
* Carol hangs head, have no late slip
RevRandy. . . .(I noticed Carol, but figured with Elissa out of the room you might get away with it)
Carol. . . .whew, thanks, Rev
RevRandy. . . .let's hope she doesn't read the log
* Marie1 writes carol a late slip...:)
Carol. . . .shes tough!
Carol. . . .oh, thanks Marie!!
Carol. . . .I'm saved
Marie1. . . .you are most welcome carol :)
Tayler. . . .What is the topic tonight?
RevRandy. . . .tonight we are working our way through the various categories of PtoPs
RevRandy. . . .color by color
RevRandy. . . .a sort of retrospective of what Rikkity has given us
RevRandy. . . .and they have, so far, provoked some very insightful comments
Tayler. . . .Sorry...totally lost, but I'll hang in there.
RevRandy. . . .we are in a break, so it should become clear soon
RevRandy. . . .(I hope)
* Elissabrb has an intro to who we are. if any newbies would find it helpful she'll be happy to post it
*** Elissabrb is now known as Elissa
RevRandy. . . .welcome back E
Carol. . . .hi elissa!
RevRandy. . . .are we ready to proceed
Marie1. . . .hi Elissa
Elissa. . . .just a sec
Elissa. . . .so would anyone like an introduction or do you all know what this is about
RevRandy. . . .I don't know what anything is about
Tayler. . . .I don't know..sorry!
Carol. . . .me says I think I know you
Elissa. . . .hey carol!
Carol. . . .hey Elissa!
RevRandy. . . .it's OK Tayler - glad you asked
Elissa. . . .ok i'll do the intro. this will just take a minute.
Elissa. . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa. . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa. . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa. . . .I am a writer and published poet, and
Elissa. . . .am currently a Masters candidate in Community Counseling
Elissa. . . .at the College of William and Mary.
Elissa. . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa. . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa. . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa. . . . She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa. . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa. . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa. . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
Elissa. . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa. . . .Ponder. It is a unique vision of
Elissa. . . .the nature of spiritual
Elissa. . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa. . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa. . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa. . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives.
Elissa. . . .We are here to
Elissa. . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa. . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa. . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa. . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their
Elissa. . . .name
Elissa. . . . or email Randy or me anytime. Thanks,
Elissa. . . .for coming...and again, welcome!
Elissa. . . .*
RevRandy. . . .ty E
Elissa. . . .ok take it away, rev!
RevRandy. . . . 13,1"And here's a guest: God.
RevRandy. . . . 13,1If you listened closely you heard God.
RevRandy. . . . 13,1He/she/it/they are part of the silences and spaces between the things and sounds of all creation.
RevRandy. . . . 13,1We so often look for God in special people or places--and we UUs say God is in all people and places--
RevRandy. . . . 13,1but God is also in all the non-people and non-places.
RevRandy. . . . 13,1Caught on the breath of the wind, a guest for all who care to tune in." (1/24/97 - I#15)
RevRandy. . . .So, what do you see, hear, feel, sense, know here with this PtoP
bunny. . . .that is so nice
Elissa. . . .you can almost sense God reading that, can't you bunny. i know i always feel that
bunny. . . .really true
Wal. . . .If we lived that it could be we would be in heaven
bunny. . . .absolutely
Elissa. . . .wal, we are closer than we know
RevRandy. . . .it is already at hand - in those space and silences
Wal. . . .Its just so simple
Wal. . . .The kingdom of god is within, go within
RevRandy. . . .yes
bunny. . . .anybody up on bible quotations
Elissa. . . .not me
RevRandy. . . .I can give it a shot
bunny. . . .I need to answer a childs question
RevRandy. . . .that is OK
bunny. . . .she would talk to God, except she cant picture him just Jesus
bunny. . . .what does he look like nana
bunny. . . .I know I read it somewhere, you talk to my Son you talk to me
Wal. . . .He is god and so are you, just total Love
bunny. . . .I said that, but it isnt registering.
Elissa. . . .tell her to look in the mirror and at the faces of those she loves and at the beauty of the sunset and rainbows
RevRandy. . . .In a Christian context, share with her the opening of the book of John
bunny. . . .and
RevRandy. . . .1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
RevRandy. . . .2: The same was in the beginning with God.
RevRandy. . . .3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
RevRandy. . . .4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
RevRandy. . . .5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Wal. . . .Just please be yourself .there is no division but that we put there
RevRandy. . . .So, in this book God is not a person, but something like a word - or a light in the darkness
Wal. . . .The light of the world
bunny. . . .he is 6
RevRandy. . . .This is repeated in other traditions, in which the divine is not seen as ever being able to be seen in any form a human could understand
RevRandy. . . .ask him how he sees the wind
bunny. . . .good point
RevRandy. . . .he may see it in the trees, or on the waters, but that is not the wind, only what the wind causes
RevRandy. . . .same with sunlight
RevRandy. . . .and love
Elissa. . . .bunny, tell him god is not a person, but everything that is
bunny. . . .very good
RevRandy. . . .and the divine
Marie1. . . .and everything there is
bunny. . . .he wants to feel I guess like talking to Jesus, then I wanna talk to his father
Elissa. . . .we diminish what god is by trying to make it concrete
Wal. . . .In him we move and have our being
bunny. . . .He asked for a human resemblance. I came up with, he looked like his daddy
bunny. . . .so Jesus must look like his daddy.
RevRandy. . . .time to move on --- another Point to Ponder
RevRandy. . . . 0,6"First-timers are new combinations of subconscious elements, coming together for the very first time.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6If the combination works and has a chance of being an integral element of an entity, then that person progresses.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6But if not, the combination is dismantled, so to speak, and the subelements try combining again with other subelements.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6"Sometimes the elements sent back keep trying to reappear in the same combination, and you get repeat first-timers.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6But, they are so clueless, they don't remember nothing.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6The bad, so to speak, first-timers are not inherently bad, but just the wrong mix of subelements.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6Got it?
RevRandy. . . . 0,6If you picture forward in the history of our entity, you see a number of people coming together.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6Now, look back to see a number of personalities coming together to form each of those people.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6People have complex personalities because they are a combination of elements.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6You are already a sum of many parts.
RevRandy. . . .
RevRandy. . . . 0,6"The long-term picture is the drive to find meaningful and productive sums of ever-more elaborate and complex elements.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6From subatomic particles to compounds to DNA to us to beyond to God, which is the universal All.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6And, maybe somewhere, gods combine to entities we cannot and dare not dream of.
RevRandy. . . . 0,6Ponder this." (3/8/96 - V#14)
RevRandy. . . .here is the most concise statement of Spiritual Persistence
RevRandy. . . .and maybe, somewhere, gods combine to entities we cannot and dare not dream of. - ahhhh
bunny. . . .children are precious arent they
bunny. . . .the most innocent questions
RevRandy. . . .they are potential itself
RevRandy. . . .and often we would do best to live with their questions than rush with our answers
bunny. . . .I can live with his questions, he wants the answers yesterday
Wal. . . .The world cant be as bad as the newspapers say, there has to be a point in it all
RevRandy. . . .o yes, Wal
Elissa. . . .wal, the newspapers just look at facts and figures, not soul and spirit
RevRandy. . . .they want profits, not prophets
Wal. . . .Children come with knowledge of the spiritual world which is soon taken from them by us
RevRandy. . . .I agree - we enculturate it out of them
RevRandy. . . .we give them yesterday's insights like pre-digested food
Elissa. . . .yes, that's very true. they're told they have "imaginary friends" or vivid imaginations and that dreams are not real. what a shame.
RevRandy. . . .how many of us were told that the elves we saw in the forest were just shadows
Marie1. . . .me...lol
RevRandy. . . .and that the lights of fairy dances were only swamp gas
Elissa. . . .and that the glimpses i had of my past lives were just imagination
Elissa. . . .children have that radical openness
Wal. . . .That is why we are told unless we come as children we cant enter the kingdom, which is a state of mind
RevRandy. . . .and all the riches of the world, and all the possessions and hard knowledge will not serve as well as a pure spirit and an open mind
Wal. . . .Thats the way to the truth
RevRandy. . . .like children
RevRandy. . . .like bunny's questions from her grandchild -- children are not afraid to ask their questions - we discount our inquisitiveness
RevRandy. . . .and then discount theirs
Wal. . . .If we look at the worlds religions we cant find the truth only division
RevRandy. . . .each has a piece they treat as the whole
RevRandy. . . .and there is a whole they only see through a small piece
RevRandy. . . .double whammy
RevRandy. . . .but, it is time to move on
RevRandy. . . . 0,1Papa:
RevRandy. . . . 0,1"So yesterday, so to speak, this clerk says to me, "You like peanut butter?"
RevRandy. . . . 0,1And I say, "And how." He says, "I am going to get you 50 lbs. of the best peanut butter you ever tasted,"
RevRandy. . . . 0,1and boy was he right.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1Spiritual peanut butter.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1I think about it and it's great. Here thinking is as good as doing.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1"We can think about good stuff, it seems like it happened, and so it is real.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1But in your world, this is true only in theory for most people;
RevRandy. . . . 0,1in our world, in practice for most people.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1The great people of your world knew it as practice--Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Joan of Arc, etc.;
RevRandy. . . . 0,1Moses in his younger years, then he lost it.
RevRandy. . . .
RevRandy. . . . 0,1"What surprises me here is how good I feel without a body.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1I've learned I need to be me first; and looks are deceiving; duty isn't all it's cracked up to be,
RevRandy. . . . 0,1do it out of love not duty;
RevRandy. . . . 0,1forget image, remember your soul. And hang by your thumbs.
RevRandy. . . .
RevRandy. . . . 0,1"I feel like I am 10 times smarter here. You're dense, not stupid.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1It takes you longer to comprehend, but if you keep it in mind and ponder, in time all things can be known and understood.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1Life is like the local roads off the high-speed superhighway of being.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1You see more at the slower speed, and then understand more later at this higher speed." (12/22/95) - W#16)
RevRandy. . . .so, what does Papa say to you?
Elissa. . . .write if you get work, papa :)
Elissa. . . .papa is my father, for those who are new here
RevRandy. . . .he left this physical world just about 4 years ago this week
*** kath (kcade@***.245.197.112.Houston1.Level3.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . .hi kath!
RevRandy. . . .hi kath
kath. . . .please accept my note
RevRandy. . . .ooooo- good student
kath. . . .:)
kath. . . .lol
* Elissa accepts kath's note graciously
kath. . . .sorry to come in late really
Elissa. . . .that's ok sweetie. as long as you have a good excuse
Marie1. . . .:)
Marie1. . . .spiritual peanut butter
RevRandy. . . .we are just discussing a PtoP from Papa
Marie1. . . .hmm, i am allergic to peanut butter
RevRandy. . . .I'll give you the end of it
RevRandy. . . . 0,1"I feel like I am 10 times smarter here. You're dense, not stupid.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1It takes you longer to comprehend, but if you keep it in mind and ponder, in time all things can be known and understood.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1Life is like the local roads off the high-speed superhighway of being.
RevRandy. . . . 0,1You see more at the slower speed, and then understand more later at this higher speed." (12/22/95) - W#16)
Wal. . . .We are part of all knowledge but we need to stop the worlds clatter and re-member who we are
RevRandy. . . .to be attuned to what is real
*** journey (PTomli4650@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . .hey journey
journey. . . .hello everyone
kath. . . .(((journey))) hi
Wal. . . .Reality is beyond the mind
RevRandy. . . .but we sense it - when we tune in
kath. . . .yeah i was thinking of all the times when i had the answer the first nanosecond, but belabored the point
kath. . . .anyway
kath. . . .what is that about
RevRandy. . . .(do you know about onoseconds - that time between typing the wrong key and knowing that you did)
Elissa. . . .lol
Elissa. . . .we're just dense, not stupid. we can understand things but it takes us longer.
kath. . . .density, we go along with our role, lol
Elissa. . . .huh
Elissa. . . .wha
kath. . . .we have moments of KNOWING what we know, yet go along with the crowd anyway
kath. . . .i do
Elissa. . . .maybe because we doubt our own ability to really know what we know
Elissa. . . .without external validation
kath. . . .you know me Elissa
Elissa. . . .i sure do, sweetie :)
Elissa. . . .but that's a big issue for so many people, as i've discovered in counseling
kath. . . .yes, the mirror
Elissa. . . .lack of trust in our own perceptions is the root of much unhappiness and pathology
RevRandy. . . .do we trust ourselves
RevRandy. . . .and in society so often people label those who do trust themselves with negative connotations
kath. . . .i think we do, i do, but i play with it to be accepted, eeks
RevRandy. . . .so do we all to some degree - that is some of what we need to grow beyond by learning and remembering
Elissa. . . .o we all do that kath. at least you're aware of when you're doing it!
Elissa. . . .just give yourself a nice kick in the rear and you'll feel much better :)
RevRandy. . . .but now, time for a special PtoP on Thanksgiving
RevRandy. . . . 5,7AND THANKSGIVING:
RevRandy. . . . 5,7"Hi all my dear friends, and it is so good to see you all here. I know the
RevRandy. . . . 5,7holidays are coming up and that this is a hard time for many of you. As
RevRandy. . . . 5,7physical beings, you look at what you can see. Makes sense, yes. But, what
RevRandy. . . . 5,7you can see is not all that is there. What you see as lack or loss or empty
RevRandy. . . . 5,7spaces are really nonexistent. There is only a gap in your own perception.
RevRandy. . . . 5,7At those times when you see an empty space, or you find yourself focusing on
RevRandy. . . . 5,7what isn't there, try to see between the spaces... try to see around the
RevRandy. . . . 5,7spaces... call out for what you need but focus on what you have, and what you
RevRandy. . . . 5,7need will appear. Now, it may not be what you want...but it will be what you
RevRandy. . . . 5,7need.
RevRandy. . . .
RevRandy. . . . 5,7"My Thanksgiving wish for all of you is that you focus on abundance, on that
RevRandy. . . . 5,7which is in your glass, on the possibilities of the future. I know it's
RevRandy. . . . 5,7hard, but if you can do that you will feel fullness fill that which now
RevRandy. . . . 5,7looks empty. Amen." (11/22/98 - G#49)
Marie1. . . .:)
journey. . . .thank you rev randy, i needed to hear that today
RevRandy. . . .thank Elissa - she chose it
Elissa. . . .((((((journey))))))
kath. . . .is that our rikkity?
RevRandy. . . .it is
Elissa. . . .yep
journey. . . .thank you rikkity
kath. . . .(((((((((rikkity))))))) thank you
kath. . . .thankyou mom Elissa
* Wal : Blessings to you
RevRandy. . . .so, I hope as you gather (those of you in the States) this week for Thanksgiving
RevRandy. . . .and all others in whatever social gathering
RevRandy. . . .you have that sense of spiritual abundance
Marie1. . . .oh Elissa, my thanksgiving is past
Elissa. . . .well have another one marie :)
Marie1. . . .hmm, that is a thought
* Marie1 coming over for thanksgiving..hehehe
Elissa. . . .this is a difficult time though, isn't it
journey. . . .yes it is
RevRandy. . . .but it is about any of those symbolic times we dine or talk or think about who isn't with us
Elissa. . . .we focus more on the empty spaces at times like this
journey. . . .i think we feel a lack of completeness without the physical presence, even if know they are with us in spirit
journey. . . .or i do, at least
Marie1. . . .yes, agreed journey
Elissa. . . .focusing on what is there instead of what is not can be very healing
Elissa. . . .i know it's hard, but it is possible
journey. . . .there is still that empty seat at the table no matter who you put in it
Elissa. . . .don't put anyone in it journey
RevRandy. . . .I think of the Seder meal - with its ritual empty place (for Elijah) for the spirit of that which is missing but always expected and wanted
Elissa. . . .we set a place for rikkity at our table
Marie1. . . .really?
RevRandy. . . .yep
Elissa. . . .you don't need to give up everything just because your loved one is no longer physical
Elissa. . . .we gave gifts to one another from her on xmas and gave her some as well
RevRandy. . . .(she was very generous with the cat)
Elissa. . . .we also wrote cards on b-days, etc.
journey. . . .i will light a candle, but cant leave seat empty for it would hurt the others too much
Marie1. . . .hmm
Elissa. . . .journey, it would not be empty if you spent time talking about your loved one and made him/her present at the table
Elissa. . . .we did that in the beginning and it really helped
journey. . . .ty elissa, we do talk, but fight back tears..it's difficult
Elissa. . . .yes it is difficult, journey, but not as difficult as trying to pretend the person is gone
RevRandy. . . .or pretending that they are not gone - just absent and unspoken of
Elissa. . . .and she is there!
Marie1. . . .Elissa and Rev, can you share what the significance of doing that means to both of you and also Rikkity?
RevRandy. . . .for me it symbolized continuity, and made the table seem more real, less surreal
RevRandy. . . .it made it easier to talk about her continuing presence among us
Elissa. . . .it's another way of keeping connected
RevRandy. . . .and to acknowledge the loss too
RevRandy. . . .and really see how much of her endured at the table - foods, memories, etc
Elissa. . . .our loved ones will always be part of us and to not acknowledge that is to make our grieving process much harder
Marie1. . . .thank you for sharing about your experience Elissa and Rev. It meant a lot.
Elissa. . . .yw, marie
journey. . . .i suppose in a year i thought it would be easier for us all but it seems almost worse
RevRandy. . . .journey - I found the second year harder than the first
Elissa. . . .journey, the hardest time for many people is between 18 and 24 months. that was true for me, too.
Elissa. . . .that's when the reality hits that they are not coming back and your life has moved on in a different direction
RevRandy. . . .Well, it is that time again
RevRandy. . . .my clock is striking 11
RevRandy. . . .thank you all for another great evening
journey. . . .oh man...i just feel so sorry for myself today..ty as usual for your insights and love
Marie1. . . .journey, thanks for sharing and opening yourself to our love
Elissa. . . .thank you all for being here tonight!
Elissa. . . .and we will see you next week informally and be back with formal chats on january 23
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa. . . . 13,0!Elissa rainbow.mid 0,13 :o)
RevRandy. . . .so drop by and chat with us - but no homework, no exams, no going down the list
Marie1. . . .Elissa and Rev, so what will be happening with the room between now and Jan 23?
Elissa. . . .we'll be here hanging out on most sundays and you come by and chat and ponder
RevRandy. . . .we will be putting up new wallpaper, redoing the floors, and having informal chat time, many of the weeks
Elissa. . . .i think we'll be taking off one or two of those days
RevRandy. . . .nite all
Elissa. . . .and now i need to go back to my studies
Elissa. . . .goodnight, dear friends!
Marie1. . . .journey
Marie1. . . .what do you need from us tonight
journey. . . .nite
Marie1. . . .Elissa, love you
Marie1. . . .tell uncle rev i say love him too
Elissa. . . .love you, poodle-face
Elissa. . . .i will :)
journey. . . .i dont know marie1..i think perhaps i got it when elissa
journey. . . .said or rev that 18 to 24 months was harder
Marie1. . . .okay journey
journey. . . .but i just feel like i thought i would be better and feel better
Elissa. . . .journey, be kind to yourself and patient and loving. nite!
journey. . . .ty elissa
Session Close: Sun Nov 21 23:11:40 1999

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Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 2001-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.