Session Start: Sun Nov 07 20:56:33 1999
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,13Sunday 11/7: PURPOSE OF LIFE, CONNECTION, AND THE EVOLUTION OF THE SOUL 13,2 ~Sundays at 9pm ET~ Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker and Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). www.spiritualpersistence.com '

Elissa. . . .hey deb!
Deb. . . .Hi Elissa
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RevRandy. . . .Hello all
Deb. . . .Hi Rev
RevRandy. . . .hi Deb
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RevRandy. . . .Hey TF
Elissa. . . .((((((TF))))))
TF88. . . .hi Randy, elissa, deb :)
Deb. . . .Hi TF
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RevRandy. . . .hey ez
TF88. . . .hi ez
ezwind. . . .hi rev
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ezwind. . . .hi TF
Elissa. . . .hi ez and kath
TF88. . . .hi kath
ezwind. . . .hi elissa
kath. . . .hi Elissa, hi ez, Deb, TF
Elissa. . . .how is everyone tonight?
Elissa. . . .recovered from halloween?
TF88. . . .LOL
TF88. . . .was that just one week ago? geez, seems like longer
Elissa. . . .the milky ways! ahhhh the milky ways! and the spirit vibes were sooooo strong here last sunday!
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Elissa. . . .randy, explain unitarian universalism. some people want to know what it is.
RevRandy. . . .explain Unitarian Universalism ....
RevRandy. . . .ez - want to explain UUism for the folks ez
ezwind. . . .if you'd like me to.
RevRandy. . . .sure - consider it a theological school question
ezwind. . . .unitarian universalism is now a non- creedal religious community
ezwind. . . .it is a community that agrees (covenants)
ezwind. . . .to support each other's search for truth,
ezwind. . . .the inherent worth and dignity of all people
ezwind. . . .and the interconnected web of all existence,
ezwind. . . .among other things.
ezwind. . . .it has roots in the protestant reformation
ezwind. . . .but was deemed heretical by mainline denominations
ezwind. . . .unitarians because they upheld the unity of God
ezwind. . . .and universalists because they believed all would attain salvation
ezwind. . . .today it is a liberal religious community.
ezwind. . . ..
Elissa. . . .great explanation, ez! now i understand it lol
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ezwind. . . .that's a thumbnail sketch, it's really more complicated than that
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RevRandy. . . .Thanks ez -
RevRandy. . . .well done!
ezwind. . . .yw
Elissa. . . .hi momma and jackie
Jackie. . . .hi everyone
momma. . . .HeavenO everyone.
RevRandy. . . .Hello to momma and jackie
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RevRandy. . . .hello carol
Carol. . . .hi Rev! How you doing?
RevRandy. . . .Doing just fine, thank you - on the road tonight!
Elissa. . . .hi carol
Carol. . . .hi Elissa!
RevRandy. . . .So, if every will settle down, we will get started
RevRandy. . . .Before we begin each week, we offer a simple invocation
RevRandy. . . .please join in the spirit of these words
RevRandy. . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . .and guided in all ways gracious. AMen
Elissa. . . .amen~
Carol. . . .amen
ezwind. . . .amen
kath. . . .amen
momma. . . .amen
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RevRandy. . . .Hello Deni - and welcome - we are just checking to see if we have any newcomers tonight - any of you new to SP
Deni. . . .hi Rev..and wonderful ROOMIES
Elissa. . . .lol
Elissa. . . .hi deni-face
Deni. . . .hiya Lissa- Pooh
RevRandy. . . .OK - I guess we all know what we are doing here - for the next while
RevRandy. . . .I will be sharing, and starting a discussion on a point to ponder in the area of
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RevRandy. . . .Purpose of Life, Connection, and the Evolution of the Soul (nothing too big or heavy - LOL)
Elissa. . . .:)
RevRandy. . . .We will talk about these
RevRandy. . . .until about 10, take a short break,
RevRandy. . . .and be back for some more
RevRandy. . . .So, is everybody ready?
momma. . . .Yes, thank you.
Carol. . . .ready
Jackie. . . .ready
RevRandy. . . .OK - here goes
Deni. . . .:)
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RevRandy. . . . 13,2"Tonight let's emphasize tuna--how there's tuna and albacore and light and
RevRandy. . . . 13,2dark and white and in oil and in water, but it's all tuna. Or not. If you
RevRandy. . . . 13,2make a sandwich, it matters which tuna you use. So, you may have several
RevRandy. . . . 13,2identities going, but that's ok if you use them wisely and appropriately. So
RevRandy. . . . 13,2be who you were before and miss the mark; be who you will be and miss the
RevRandy. . . . 13,2mark; be who you want to be and miss the mark; but be who you are now, and
RevRandy. . . . 13,2the mark you need to focus on will line up for you. Get it. And I don't mean
RevRandy. . . . 13,2that which is always easy or that which seems automatically right.
RevRandy. . . .Now, here is a curious part of a point
RevRandy. . . .(and I will follow with the rest in a few minutes - but let's look at this first)
RevRandy. . . .There are several "you's" floating around out there
RevRandy. . . .like tuna (sorry Charlie)
RevRandy. . . .and you could decide to make your life based on what you have been
RevRandy. . . .and that would leave you anchored to the past
RevRandy. . . .I can relate to that
RevRandy. . . .there have been times when I have tried to recreate what was
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RevRandy. . . .just the other day I had an old pair of sunglasses that I have had for 15 years
RevRandy. . . .and every time a part would break, I would repair ... to the point that very little of what is there now is original
RevRandy. . . .but I kept holding tightly onto them for nostalgic reasons
RevRandy. . . .but when the special temples broke and could not be repaired, I almost kept them anyway, in their broken state
RevRandy. . . .as a link to the past .....
RevRandy. . . .even though they were not that comfortable, not that good in keep out reflected light, and did not really serve me well anymore.
RevRandy. . . .I allowed myself to be tethered to the past .... which did not serve my present the best way that it could be served. Sure
RevRandy. . . .it was easy, and sure, those were the glasses that I automatically thought of .... but they were not the ones for me now.
RevRandy. . . .SO, I finally threw them out - got on with .....
RevRandy. . . .what life is now, not then
RevRandy. . . .But, if you look at the point, it is says we can do this about what we will be, not just what we have been ...
RevRandy. . . .living into the future more than now
RevRandy. . . .(I won't even go into that, since I am an inveterate trip planner, reading timetables for future, mythical trips)
RevRandy. . . .Let's just say, I am trying to find a way in the present to find the same roots and wings I thought were in past and future
RevRandy. . . .but which are probably right here, right now.
RevRandy. . . .Remember that closing sequence in the Wizard of OZ - where the Wizard (o, what a wiz he waz)
RevRandy. . . .reminds Dorothy that she did not have to travel far afield to find the things of value
RevRandy. . . .that they are right there in our here and now - not our past or our futures
RevRandy. . . .So, what do you think of this:
RevRandy. . . . 13,2"Tonight let's emphasize tuna-- how there's tuna and albacore and light and
RevRandy. . . . 13,2dark and white and in oil and in water, but it's all tuna. Or not. If you
RevRandy. . . . 13,2make a sandwich, it matters which tuna you use. So, you may have several
RevRandy. . . . 13,2identities going, but that's ok if you use them wisely and appropriately. So
RevRandy. . . . 13,2be who you were before and miss the mark; be who you will be and miss the
RevRandy. . . . 13,2mark; be who you want to be and miss the mark; but be who you are now, and
RevRandy. . . . 13,2the mark you need to focus on will line up for you. Get it. And I don't mean
RevRandy. . . . 13,2that which is always easy or that which seems automatically right.
RevRandy. . . .Does this strike a nerve for you?*
Elissa. . . . "be who you are now, and the mark you need to focus on will line up for you."
Jackie. . . .live in the present, know thyself
journey. . . .what if who you are right in this moment is confused
Elissa. . . .journey, then you need to live with that confusion for awhile i think, and not feel pressured to find answers
Elissa. . . .sometimes we need to wait it out and the answers that come are then more meaningful
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RevRandy. . . .I agree - we often seek our answers too soon - before the focus lines up for us
journey. . . .ty elissa
Elissa. . . .yw journey. i know that from personal experience. confusion can be very uncomfortable, but it can also be very productive
momma. . . .The last sentence confuses me some.
Elissa. . . .how so momma?
momma. . . .Well, is the author saying that the real me ("you") is not easy to find, nor will the real "you" be automatic?
RevRandy. . . .More that we cannot assume that what is easy, automatic, familiar is necessarily the way for us to go
TF88. . . .I'm not sure that 'who you are' is confused, but you can certainly be confused about who you are.
Elissa. . . .yes tf. and confused about what you think is the way to go...
Elissa. . . .but maybe that confusion is an indication that you're not ready to move yet, or not looking in the direction you need
RevRandy. . . .Also, being confused while living in a confusing situation does not mean one is confused inherently
journey. . . .well, yes tf, i know who i am, but in this particular moment pathwise, and where to go is more to the point
XkuRUx. . . .*gives TF88 a political plank*
momma. . . .Well heck, sure is frustrating to know our job is to find out who we are, then to know that the road to getting there isn't clear and isn't easy and isn't automatic.!
RevRandy. . . .What I have found is that when I follow the clear, easy paths, I get somewhere that seem right for a while
RevRandy. . . .but if I had worked and waited a while longer, lived through the confusion, not away from it, a much more meaningful path opens up
RevRandy. . . .that in the end is infinitely easier, and more me
Elissa. . . .momma, it doesn't always feel easy or automatic i think she's saying. it doesn't feel that way because we're not used to focusing that way.
Elissa. . . .sometimes what seems the easy way or the automatic way is the way we've been given by others...not really our own
kath. . . .what i hear is that it all has value, and what this reminds me of the most is the experience of loss, of a part of "self" and grief and going on kinda as the dust settles
momma. . . .I always thought that whatever is happening is pretty much destined to happen - with a little variation of free will.
Elissa. . . .momma, then how do you approach a choice you need to make?
momma. . . .Hmm, I decide (using serenity prayer) and I go about making best decision from that guideline.
Elissa. . . .then momma, you are making choices and choices are not predestined
TF88. . . .maybe the issue is trusting that we can figure out where to go, as we go right now
journey. . . .i agree tf, trusting the process
momma. . . .Yes, TF I agree with the way you have said it.
Elissa. . . .yes, trusting that your "mark will line up for you"
Elissa. . . .but isn't that an interesting way of putting it?
Elissa. . . .it's not that we will have to find the mark, but that the mark will find us!
XkuRUx. . . .we make the mark.
momma. . . .Yes, but if I am making choices that aren't correct for my path, then (AS LONG AS I KEEP TRYING TO FIND MY PATH) eventually I will make the right choice. Bad choices are sometimes necessary to find the right one.
ezwind. . . .sometimes being who you are now is a bunch of hard work, because it means you gradually have to sort through the confusion
XkuRUx. . . .Momma-the bad ones were probably the good ones.
momma. . . .In this sense, whatever choice one makes, it is the right choice for the present.
RevRandy. . . .if the choice is made for the present, yes, I would think so
Elissa. . . .if it feels right for you, momma, yes. but sometimes it's hard to recognize what that feels like i think
RevRandy. . . .I wonder - have any of you ever been on a lake looking for a certain inlet - and you can't see it
RevRandy. . . .then as you travel over the lake, suddenly the opening lines up so you can see it, which would not have happened if you had stayed still
Elissa. . . .good analogy, randy
journey. . . .looking backwards we can see how enlightening it was but going forward we sometimes stutter and fear what is coming, knowing all the while it too is beneficial
Elissa. . . .fear will certainly stop us "in our tracks" journey
XkuRUx. . . .time's probably an illusion. ur choices today might reflect ur past ones or future ones
RevRandy. . . .Maybe the next part of the point will help us (or confused us more) - shall we look at it?
Elissa. . . .we shall :)
RevRandy. . . .13,2"An analogy: You are driving a train. Ahead there is a switch. To the right
RevRandy. . . . 13,2is the main line, high ball and high speed; but to the left is the mountain
RevRandy. . . . 13,2division. You approach the switch and you say, 'I am a crack limited. I
RevRandy. . . . 13,2should get the main,' or you say, 'I always get the main,' or, 'I would like
RevRandy. . . . 13,2to get the main.' But when you get there, the switch is for the left for the
RevRandy. . . . 13,2mountain division--long, slow, hard going, with lots of switchbacks and cuts
RevRandy. . . . 13,2and all that railroad ****. So you ask yourself, 'Is this where I am really
RevRandy. . . . 13,2supposed to go.' But hey, in the end you get to the terminal just the same,
RevRandy. . . . 13,2but the scenery dazzles and the work enlightens and you are never asked to
RevRandy. . . . 13,2go too fast nor beyond your capacity. And what you might not know at the
RevRandy. . . . 13,2time was that, if you had got the main, it was blocked by a landslide or
RevRandy. . . . 13,2occupied by a train on a collision course or broken in some spot or would
RevRandy. . . . 13,2have pushed you over your capacity. Life's switches will be aligned for
RevRandy. . . . 13,2where the real you needs to go. No miracles, no tragedies--just the way it
RevRandy. . . . 13,2is. Identity should express the sum of the person's journeys; not be the
RevRandy. . . . 13,2choosers of the journeys. Get it.
RevRandy. . . .Hmmmm
journey. . . .wow, wonderful
kath. . . .i rebel, yet i know "it is all Good"
kath. . . .my perception changes as i grow
RevRandy. . . .we all have these paths before us, and it is a choice whether we follow the familiar or diverge
Elissa. . . .there's that message again. Identity should express the sum of the person's journeys; not be the choosers of the journeys."
RevRandy. . . .Before we follow a chosen path to its end, we do not know where it will lead us
RevRandy. . . .nor what we will find and be given along the way
Jackie. . . .Yes, sometimes one can look back and see the reasons
kath. . . .yes, let us live in the moment, not react to the situations
RevRandy. . . .Here, as a railroader, I can really relate
RevRandy. . . .I have sometimes been on trains that have been delayed for various reasons, and then rerouted
RevRandy. . . .and most the people have moaned and groaned - we will be late! we are not taking the right route! etc.
RevRandy. . . .but in the end, I have found those detours often to contain sights and visions I would not have had otherwise
RevRandy. . . .AND
RevRandy. . . .as all of us were being a little disoriented in time and place, we opened ourselves up in new ways
RevRandy. . . .some of the best conversations I have had (or allowed myself to have) were when I was "forced" out of my familiar patterns
RevRandy. . . .when I couldn't maintain the facade of choice and control, the mystical and magical and meaningful happened
RevRandy. . . .Ever have that happen to you?
Elissa. . . .TF how about your sandwich maker story
TF88. . . .LOL, good example elissa
journey. . . .like an incident i heard of someone who was late for the bank and so frustrated only to find there delay saved their lives because the bank was robbed in the delay period.
RevRandy. . . .yep - journey -
TF88. . . .right journey, that was me
Elissa. . . .LOL
journey. . . .was it you tf, thanks for sharing it, it obviously stayed with me :)
Elissa. . . .GMTA :)
TF88. . . .my sandwich maker messed up and made me late
RevRandy. . . .wow - TF - so glad you were late!
TF88. . . .missed the robbery by the same amount of time the sandwich maker made me late
XkuRUx. . . .well i don't know. maybe they knew not to go to the bank since it wazn't robbed in a while
RevRandy. . . .(was it tuna sandwiches??)
Elissa. . . .lol
TF88. . . .LOL, NO tuna..yuk
journey. . . .rev, would you call that divine guidance?
RevRandy. . . .So, journey - divine guidance - not the term I would use - for that implies a knowing being with controlling choices beyond us -
RevRandy. . . .but I would rather think about the unfolding meaning we see if we don't decide in advance what will happen, and what we will consider advantageous
journey. . . .good point, ty
RevRandy. . . .There is a classic story about this - about the man who goes to another city to avoid the prophesy of his death at home
RevRandy. . . .only to meet death in the streets of the other city.
XkuRUx. . . .i guess he didn't want to die in that city
Elissa. . . .is that predestination or is it that when we are being ourselves what happens is what needs to happen no matter where we are
XkuRUx. . . .Elissa-more likely the second choice.
Elissa. . . .i would agree Xku
RevRandy. . . .just as you cannot escape life, you cannot escape death -
RevRandy. . . .more of a karmic thingie (that's that technical term again)
RevRandy. . . .If you could make all the choices of life to come out how you wished them to be
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RevRandy. . . .you would get ....
RevRandy. . . .exactly what you can envision, which is a minor portion of what is possible
Elissa. . . .o randy that is SUCH a great point
RevRandy. . . .ty
XkuRUx. . . .actually i think it would be both. it's predetermined but u predetermined it. so it does happen because it needed 2
kath. . . .reminds me of my daughters death
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RevRandy. . . .yes, kath
kath. . . .yet there is a "sacred covenant" i do not fully understand
journey. . . .comes down to choosing which path
RevRandy. . . .here's some more from Rikkity
RevRandy. . . . 13,2"Spiritual Persistence works because when you truly become yourself you
RevRandy. . . . 13,2become part of a larger identity--not the other way around. And that's
RevRandy. . . . 13,2enough for me and you and now. The other way proposes the reverse, and it
RevRandy. . . . 13,2says that you only find yourself by participating again in something larger
RevRandy. . . . 13,2and other than self--lose your identity; while Spiritual Persistence says
RevRandy. . . . 13,2find it...or be a tea lady." (4/11/99 - V#37)
Elissa. . . .so our purpose is really to find fulfillment through being who we are as fully as we can, is my "perception of the moment"
RevRandy. . . .we are co-creators of the larger meaning, not just servants of it
GardenSpirit. . . .ohh I like that
RevRandy. . . .we find it by finding ourselves, not by losing ourselves
XkuRUx. . . .purpose of life is living. purpose of death is dying. purpose of after-life. well we will find out one day
Elissa. . . .yes xku (r2d2 with you tonight?) lol
XkuRUx. . . .r2d2? nope
TF88. . . .I like to think of it as...things don't happen TO us, but rather WITH us.
RevRandy. . . .(or near us - ;-)
RevRandy. . . .TF - indeed
Elissa. . . .right tf
RevRandy. . . .they would not be the same happening without us -
RevRandy. . . .and if we are just effects, and not co-causes, something is lost
XkuRUx. . . .well in physics terms. the moon disappears when u dont' look at it. it's not hard to draw conclusions from that
XkuRUx. . . .whether u look at the moon or not is ur decision.
RevRandy. . . .lots to ponder - and we can do just that in informal chatting during the break - and when we return in about 10 minutes
RevRandy. . . .wow - lots of good thoughts and ideas tonight!
Elissa. . . .great discussion!
Elissa. . . .welcome gardenspirit and joesmom
Elissa. . . .hi alisa
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journey. . . .i love this place...and joesmom!
Elissa. . . .journey, you're part of this place! :)
journey. . . .ty elissa, it is very inspirational here
TF88. . . .journey, it wouldn't be the same here without you :)
Elissa. . . .ty and that's because of people like you. randy and i wouldn't be very inspirational if we were here talking to ourselves lol
journey. . . .:)
journey. . . .TF, i forgot it was you with the bank thing, it was something that made me think, see what sharing can do.
TF88. . . .I was so glad you mentioned it, I had forgotten and it was a great example of what we were discussing
XkuRUx. . . .brb bathroom *this computer will disappear when i'm gone n this chat* tell me if u noticed a difference LOL
Elissa. . . .lol
joesmom. . . .I believe my purpose is to try and find God. In that sense, the purpose of my life is eventually death.
Elissa. . . .only if you see life and death as separate
journey. . . .oh dear joesmom...God is everywhere, not just in passing
suwan. . . .well Joesmom, rejoining the source is eventually where we all go isn't it
joesmom. . . .So true - but the lessons here on earth are so hard. I really have had all the lessons I care to enjoy. Death to me is like retirement.
suwan. . . .hmmm interesting concept, I'm not sure what death will be like to me
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XkuRUx. . . .i bet u did notice a difference. i wazn't talking when i took off
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joesmom. . . .If you saw the HBO special on life after life (next time it'll be on is 2pm Nov 17th in my area Alexandria, VA) - Dr. H K Ross really looks forward to death as a joyful occasion!
RevRandy. . . .I have met many people who feel the same
suwan. . . .yes the poet Rumi wrote so many love poems to God that they called the day he died Rumi's wedding day
XkuRUx. . . .now that deb is gone. the chat disappeared for her. this chat did change right now also
RevRandy. . . .yes X - the web of this experience changes by who is in it - that is field theory
RevRandy. . . .I have a wonderful 96 year old friend who is frail, deaf, and blind - and wonders what she is contributing in life
RevRandy. . . .and I remind her that is OK to decide to move on, but until she does, all those thoughts of hers add to the sum total of the experience of all of us
joesmom. . . .You said wonderful friend - that could be her purpose.
RevRandy. . . .yes - she has many purposes, and someday one of those will be to die into her new existence
joesmom. . . .Hmmm - I understand.
RevRandy. . . .in about a minute, we will be back to serious chat time (like this hasn't been?)
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XkuRUx. . . .???serious......*runs and Hides* that's for ppl with ulcers
TF88. . . .hello jsp
jsp. . . .((((TF88)))))))
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journey. . . .hi jsp
TF88. . . .thanks jsp...nice hugs!
jsp. . . .hi journey :)
RevRandy. . . .hello jsp
Elissa. . . .hey jsp!
jsp. . . .hi hon!
joesmom. . . .What is on the menu, I mean agenda now? Who visits from spirit please?
RevRandy. . . .I don't think that we have any visitors tonight - (Elissa is very, very, very tired - school work -
jsp. . . .grad school can sure do that to one....!
Elissa. . . .no spirit visit through me tonight, joesmom. just spirited pondering :)
RevRandy. . . .so, here we go again
RevRandy. . . .more pondering on a specific point
RevRandy. . . .ready?
joesmom. . . .Sure. Will you please tell me how it sometimes works though - in case I decide to return again?
RevRandy. . . .many Sundays we join together and ponder (as we have been) some of the points Rikkity gives us
RevRandy. . . .and sometimes, when we get lucky, some spirit joins us through Elissa (and even once Me)
joesmom. . . .Are you able to contact Rikkity and get clarification?
Elissa. . . .we talk to her all the time joesmom
RevRandy. . . .we can try - sometimes she will, and sometimes she won't
joesmom. . . .OK I never said I am sorry about your loss.
Elissa. . . .thank you joesmom, but it's only a physical loss
RevRandy. . . .that you joesmom - but that loss has now turned into a very different path of wondrous new vistas
joesmom. . . .I am one who knows the loss. Yes, sometime I'll tell you about the picture I took of our house and the image of Joe's face and hand, his guide and a butterfly appeared in the picture.
Elissa. . . .i'd love to see that, joes
RevRandy. . . .Joes - wow - that's one of those special gifts we get
journey. . . .yep i am ready
Elissa. . . .wait a sec
Elissa. . . .i gotta find out something...
Elissa. . . .Xku what does your nick mean?
XkuRUx. . . .Elissa-hmm it's a disease u get from eating human brains
Elissa. . . .lol xku, very interesting
XkuRUx. . . .Elissa-yep :o)~
jsp. . . .i thougt it was a bug that swam into personal places when one swam in the amazon....
jsp. . . .but actually now, i think that clicks
journey. . . .xku?
XkuRUx. . . .journey?
RevRandy. . . .OK - ready for more of the formal stuff?
jsp. . . .you bet!
RevRandy. . . . 13,2"Hey, if we were everything where could we go from there.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2In fact, ha, there's another tidbit that I wasn't going to share.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2Some elements-- which are, after all, just entities themselves--are so complete they don't need to combine to find wholeness, and so they are alone
RevRandy. . . . 13,2...ooooOOOOoooo. But you know what happens to them?
RevRandy. . . . 13,2If they arrive and are all ready to combine, sure, they move on.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2But if they are complete--which is not the same as fulfilled--they can't go anywhere because
RevRandy. . . . 13,2they can't connect to the learnings of others, so they also get disassembled.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2Remember it's about connection, not about singular fulfillment.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2Dead ends are not appreciated. Whoa times 2.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2This was supposed to be a quick and dumb session.
RevRandy. . . . 13
RevRandy. . . .There is more of this to come in a moment, but first
RevRandy. . . .let's take a look at this passage
journey. . . .i dont understand what you are saying..too deep can you break it down please
RevRandy. . . .One of the lessons we are often given in this culture is that the great things would be to be born complete
RevRandy. . . .whole
RevRandy. . . .god-like
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XkuRUx. . . .I don't get that. if u where complete. u wouldn't need others opinions since u would know them
jsp. . . .LISTEN for a bit journey and Xku.... RR's working on this piece
journey. . . .ty jsp
RevRandy. . . .but what she is saying here, I think, is that it is not about one's own completion, but about the sum total of being
RevRandy. . . .spread across many difference "entities".
kath. . . .we are here to CONNECT, with our self and our fellow traveler
RevRandy. . . .Yes, connection, not isolation
Elissa. . . .we are not meant to be everything ourselves, but to be a connecting part of the whole
RevRandy. . . .and in that process, if we do not connect
RevRandy. . . .if we do not find how we fit with others
RevRandy. . . .how our knowing and sensing and incorporating fits with others to make a whole
XkuRUx. . . .the borg?
jsp. . . .(Xku - that's simplistic comparison i think to what they're suggesting....)
XkuRUx. . . .jsp-it's just a physical comparison
RevRandy. . . .Here's an analogy
RevRandy. . . .you are going to build a house. Do you remember those little plastic bricks
RevRandy. . . .that were precursors of Legos
RevRandy. . . .If you had all the same size bricks
RevRandy. . . .you could not build a house would be very stable, nor could you build windows, doors, etc
RevRandy. . . .but with a variety of bricks you could build many, varied structures
joesmom. . . .Yes, but if you have God - you don't need to build a house. He has already built many mansions for us!
RevRandy. . . .Ah, but only we, as co-creators, will also build that same house. Plans are one thing - fulfillment is another
RevRandy. . . .so a brick that came into being sensing that it was complete - didn't need anything else to be complete -
RevRandy. . . .would not be capable of connecting, and would, in a sense, get left behind in the construction of meaning through connection
joesmom. . . .LOL - Are we talking about the narcissistic personality?
XkuRUx. . . .Joe-what does that mean?
joesmom. . . .Someone who can't admit vulnerability and needing others.
RevRandy. . . .we could be speaking about that ....
XkuRUx. . . .Joe-oh ok
Elissa. . . .joesmom, that may be close :)
jsp. . . .i think it's more a matter of humbleness....
jsp. . . .and openness
journey. . . .i get it, ty
RevRandy. . . .let's look at the end of the point then
RevRandy. . . . 13,2"I'm not talking about hermits. You are confusing personality with spirit.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2Not the same. It could look like anyone.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2Some hermits strive to know what others think and feel, so don't get the idea of isolation that way.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2But, look to see if a person goes through life without learning--
RevRandy. . . . 13,2note I didn't say remembering, just learning.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2Some people are very people-oriented but act like they have nothing to learn.
RevRandy. . . . 13,2 First-timers and these look alike, for these are eternal first-timers--
RevRandy. . . . 13,2even after many lives. Now go, I've said too much already. Blew all my material." (6/20/99 - V#40)
Elissa. . . .lol
jsp. . . .LOL!
kath. . . .me too, lol with love
journey. . . .rofl :)
kath. . . .and yet sad
Elissa. . . .that was my question--about the hermits
jsp. . . .(Elissa - does she get frustrated with us slow-pokes sometimes?)
Elissa. . . .jsp she amazes me with her patience, but sometimes she slows down deliberately to let us know how dense we are LOL
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RevRandy. . . .and there is that clue - look for people who think they can go through life without learning anything
RevRandy. . . .who think they have it all together
RevRandy. . . .know all the answers
RevRandy. . . .don't need to connect to the experiences of others
kath. . . .are eternal first timers those that miss the point of connection, life would be unbearable without connection to the source and one another
kath. . . .i would not come back without it
RevRandy. . . .yep - always here without some larger sense of connection AND without any feeling of needing it
RevRandy. . . .thinking that being complete and being fulfilled are the same
Elissa. . . .yes kath, but how many of us think that the point of all this is to become complete in ourselves. it's a very western attitude--the lone ranger lol
kath. . . .true E
kath. . . .and sad
Elissa. . . .sad, but they keep coming back till they learn that lesson...or get disassembled :)
journey. . . .i know not where i go, but do know that i am guided
XkuRUx. . . .i dont' know anyone like that
jsp. . . .how about the people who bulldoze the rainforest for nothing but personal profit Xku....
RevRandy. . . .Xk - I see politicians all the time like that (and evangelists)
jsp. . . .or others who make decisions of power that hurt others, but make them more money
kath. . . .i ponder the relationships in my own home, i don't even need to go to the rainforest
jsp. . . .((((kath)))))
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XkuRUx. . . .They still learn. they still have a urge to learn
jsp. . . .not some of the one's i've seen Xku...
journey. . . .only by realizing we are part of the "whole" can we understand, there is no separation i think
jsp. . . .so true!
kath. . . .that must be the pain of objectifying the other
kath. . . .seeing another as a projection of our self or putting some kind of identity on another that is not the self there for us to love and connect with
XkuRUx. . . .if u don't want to experience anything or learn anything. u wouldn't want to wake up. Krack heads are closer to what ur saying
kath. . . .crack heads are people too
jsp. . . .power can do that to people too Xku.... power can be drug-like like that
journey. . . .xku, why are you so angry? :)
XkuRUx. . . .Journey-it doesn't make sense.
Elissa. . . .think about this. if we are taught that in order to be "good" people we need to be like someone else (jesus, etc.) isn't that close to the same thing? it isn't our own experience we're looking for.
jsp. . . .true
kath. . . .exactly, there in lies the beauty of unconditional love Elissa
Elissa. . . .yes kath
RevRandy. . . .if you have seen the movie "Groundhog Day", the main character in that, in the beginning, was just such a person
jsp. . . .i love that movie!!!
Elissa. . . .me too :)
Gus. . . .The more that join in one voice the more power we have
jsp. . . .let it sit with you Xku for a while.... and listen to what comes to you in time as you do this
XkuRUx. . . .jsp- k
journey. . . .what specifically? because i am trying to find your question
journey. . . .there seem to be many and much anger is all
kath. . . .x therein lies the beauty of unconditional love, it doesn't make sense
kath. . . .the true test for me of unconditional love has been with my "self"
jsp. . . .we are not here to convince anybody of anything -- we're here now to hear more about some ideas and each of us has to process them and decide what parts to keep and what to let sit
jsp. . . .:)
Elissa. . . .amen jsp
journey. . . .Amen
jsp. . . .sometimes things come "clearer" during the week
TF88. . . .right...these are Points to Ponder after all
Elissa. . . .this is for all of you, to ponder and see what's meaningful. the rest of it doesn't matter.
XkuRUx. . . .Journey-well it doesn't seem possible to not learn. choosing to not learn is choosing to die more or less or avoid life completely. Politicians wouldn't be in that category
jsp. . . .well - just let it sit with you Xku :) -- don't have to commit to anything here tonight :)(
jsp. . . .:)
XkuRUx. . . .jsp-yeah i know
journey. . . .yes, x, but still choice, whether to live or die and still individual
XkuRUx. . . .journey-well yeah but that's the catch. ppl who wouldn't want to learn wouldn't be alive
suwan. . . .oh man now I have to jump in and say I don't believe in unconditional love
kath. . . .wow
Elissa. . . .say more suwan the brave lol
suwan. . . .just don't think it exists
suwan. . . .a myth
suwan. . . .an ideal
suwan. . . .not something that occurs
RevRandy. . . .suwan - I think I agree with you
RevRandy. . . .and that some of the transition from this level of spiritual complexity to the next may be about moving to that reality of unconditionality
Gus. . . .Jesus gave us a example of the love we need to acquire in ST JOHN When he washed the disciples feet
jsp. . . .do you want to "go there" right now guys? :)
Elissa. . . .well it's not our topic tonight, but we can if that's where everyone wants to go
TF88. . . .suwan has a thought to share, I would like to hear it
suwan. . . .naw just throwing my 2 cents into the pot
kath. . . .mary taught me unconditional love, i thought with her life and then her death, her after death love of me blows my mind and my heart experiences unconditional love, oh dear God, i pray you know this
kath. . . .i did not realize i was alone in this
Elissa. . . .i think unconditional love is simply what we're born into in the universe. it's the air we breathe. and if we're lucky we get to learn how to give without expecting anything in return...
Elissa. . . .because we recognize and feel the abundance of love in the universe.
suwan. . . .yes rev maybe the only unconditional is the one between each of us and the "source"
journey. . . .not necessarily so, you can choose, all ways, you can choose to live and experience and live to die in experience, still you always are responsible and choose
jsp. . . .it is in the loving that the gift is to us, not in the being loved....
jsp. . . .it is in the loving and not expecting anything back that is the most warming of all loves
kath. . . .love is a mind blower
jsp. . . .it is in the loving ANYWAY that warms the soul
suwan. . . .but that is still not unconditional jsp
Elissa. . . .yes, jsp. i know i've felt that with rikkity, and with a few pets along the way :)
kath. . . .gets the brain out of the way
kath. . . .to experience

XkuRUx. . . .who's Rikkity again?
Elissa. . . .o Xku, you're gonna have to go to our website and study LOL
Elissa. . . .rikkity is my daughter
XkuRUx. . . .Elissa-thought so :O)~
TF88. . . .suwan, what is unconditional love in your eyes?
jsp. . . .how do you mean suwan?
suwan. . . .tf I'm the one who doesn't believe it exists
suwan. . . .so i don't know
TF88. . . .LOL suwan...true :)
RevRandy. . . .I think we get glimpse of it, and intimations, and also a sense of it being beyond, not here just yet
jsp. . . .it's something yet for you to "remember" then i guess :)
jsp. . . .it does feel more like remembering than learning, on this one
journey. . . .hard to keep up.. i am scrolling back to try to catch up...this rooms on fire!!! love it!
Elissa. . . .i get lost periodically journey :)
jsp. . . .(me too!)
Elissa. . . .lol
suwan. . . .lol
suwan. . . .who us?
Elissa. . . .:)
jsp. . . .gee - i was following you!
RevRandy. . . .huh
Elissa. . . .ok maybe we should slow down
kath. . . .so much i took for granted, i apologize
RevRandy. . . .wha ....?
jsp. . . .who????
XkuRUx. . . .when?
jsp. . . .LOL!!!
RevRandy. . . .slow down the breathing
RevRandy. . . .breathe in
RevRandy. . . .breathe out
Elissa. . . .suwan if i gave you rikkity's definition would you respond to it?
Elissa. . . .(i'll have to go find it)
RevRandy. . . .I will interject another thought, while E is gone searching
journey. . . .ok, Rev, take control here! :)
jsp. . . .(actually - this discussion of unconditional love really can fit nicely with topic of "purpose of life, connection and evolution of the soul..." don't ya think?! )
Elissa. . . .it's all connected jsp :)
kath. . . .jsp, i could not bear this life without it
kath. . . .how does one
jsp. . . .(don't think any of us could kath :)!)
RevRandy. . . .that all of us, sometimes more, and sometimes less, have the propensity to do what Rikkity was talking about:
RevRandy. . . .acting like we know it all
RevRandy. . . .so that we close ourselves to new learning
RevRandy. . . .we may do it for defense (we are overloaded, it hurts too much)
RevRandy. . . .or we may do it from some sense of pride or egoism (we have our act together)
Alisa. . . .like we say if we only knew then what we know now-we all miss out on process of connection
RevRandy. . . .Yep - assuming that we have it all, then we cannot connect to another other
kath. . . .true alisa
kath. . . .and most important now
XkuRUx. . . .well choices in doctrines must be made sometimes. how else would we continue looking into it.
RevRandy. . . .and if the spirit of all-that-is is infinite, then how can we claim that something finite
RevRandy. . . .is all-that-is
Gus. . . .well said Rev
Elissa. . . .ready?
Elissa. . . ."This is about love. There is nothing you can do to earn it and there is nothing you can do to lose it. Love to the universe is like air to the physical body.
Elissa. . . .It is life. It is the sustaining force and the element that infuses and animates all there is. If you exist, you are loved. It has nothing to do with who you are.
kath. . . .YES
kath. . . .air
kath. . . .element of all that is, free
Elissa. . . .It has to do with what you experienced and how you were treated by others. It has to do with trust, and trust is fragile and easily broken.
Elissa. . . .You can relearn it, but it takes work and openness to the love of the universe.
jsp. . . .something we have only to "let happen" not something we have to "do" or "construct" - just get the &*(& out of the way!
journey. . . .forgiveness
Elissa. . . .Listen to the love and hear your purpose and possibilities and persistence. Love is what binds us each to the other, and it is not dependent on time or space or behavior." (4/6/97 - R#16)
Elissa. . . .that's an excerpt...there's another one i'm looking for...hang on
jsp. . . .oops - sorry on that interruption!
journey. . . .me too!
RevRandy. . . .so, we are talking about participation in something that is there for us, and yet beyond us
journey. . . .i dont think beyond us, i think we strive for this
jsp. . . .i like that key phrase you just used Rev -- participation in something
suwan. . . .well that is talking about love from the universe or God's love as some would call it
Gus. . . .It encompasses us I believe
suwan. . . .which imho may be the only unconditional love
jsp. . . .and?
Elissa. . . ."Love and energy are ultimately the same when they are genuine."
suwan. . . .I do believe that the source sends out love unconditionally
suwan. . . .but I have a hard time believing that there is unconditional love between two people
RevRandy. . . .yes, suwan, and would agree, and that we grow into, through, by, toward, like that love
jsp. . . .ah
RevRandy. . . .but it remains too often an ideal, not practice or perception
kath. . . .practice in our culture is interesting
suwan. . . .unconditional love between two people would by definition, be conditioned on your being that person
jsp. . . .and i think it's more of a "get the *self* out of the way, and all the *fears* that *self/ego* get tied up in, and all the *judgements* they like to deal in" -- and get on the wavelength that is already there ---- that's unconditional love and I have seen it happen between people :)
XkuRUx. . . .babies have unconditional luv. they are frankly useless for a few months
journey. . . .i disagree emphatically xku
RevRandy. . . .how does one measure usefulness, Xk
XkuRUx. . . .journey-what do they have for usefulness? maybe luv that's it. they can't do anything
kath. . . .unconditional love is not prized in our culture
jsp. . . .sure doesn't make for good movie plots....
journey. . . .how do you know what lives you touch? only when you are told in words, you never know those that are touched in the quiet
jsp. . . .they can be the recipients of our love Xku.....
jsp. . . .they can transform lives....
jsp. . . .they can bring us to new parts of ourselves....
jsp. . . .they can do SO much!
XkuRUx. . . .jsp-that's about it. That's what i mean. the only thing exchanged is luv n food n stuff like that
jsp. . . .well you're underestimating things then Xku :)
Gus. . . .kath , we are a culture of power ; love empowers others
suwan. . . .kath tell me where you have seen it
kath. . . .i experienced unconditional in the relationship with mary
kath. . . .i opened to it
kath. . . .i gave it
kath. . . .from somewhere inside
suwan. . . .still wasn't it conditioned on it being mary?
kath. . . .no

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Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 2001-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.