11/05/2000 - CHOICES AND OPPORTUNITY
|Session Start: Sun Nov 05
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Choices and Opportunity" 2,9Sunday 2,11November 5 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '
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RevRandybrb. .hey suwan
suwan. .Hi Rev!
Elissa. .hi suwan :)
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* Moon : Hello everyone!
suwan. .Hi E
RevRandy. .hello moon
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TF88. .hi there :)
Elissa. .hey tf :)
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Elissa. .keiko!!! hi sweetie :)
kxkoda. .hi, Elissa!!!
RevRandy. .hey Keiko
TF88. .keiko must be popular, got 3 !!! AND a :)
Elissa. .keiko comes to visit us, that's why lol
RevRandy. .But, hey, welcome here, tonight
RevRandy. .welcome to Spiritual Persistence
RevRandy. .Your weekly chance
RevRandy. .to catch up with the life of the Baxter Family
RevRandy. .when we last were together, Father Baxter (Bob)
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Elissa. .hey amy :)
RevRandy. .had just come home from work with a perplexed look on his face .... let's listen in
Amy. .hi elissa
Amy. .hi everyone
RevRandy. .Your weekly chance to explore some insights from within and beyond
RevRandy. .welcome to all who are here ---
RevRandy. .we usually begin with a short intro ......
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Elissa. .no newbies here yet
Elissa. .hey zee :)
RevRandy. .hello zee
ZEE. .hello everyone
RevRandy. .OK -
RevRandy. .then we will start with a short invocation
RevRandy. .please join in the spirit of these words
RevRandy. . 0,2May we be connected to all things loving,
RevRandy. . 0,2Protected from all things evil,
RevRandy. . 0,2And guided in all ways gracious.
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RevRandy. .hey, Marie
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RevRandy. .and Deni too
Elissa. .hey marie and deni-face :)
Marie1. .hi rev, elissa and everyone.
Deni. .hi Rev
Deni. .hi Lissa-poo
RevRandy. .well, folks, we have our usual format tonight
RevRandy. .with plenty of PtoPs to share
RevRandy. .and discuss
RevRandy. .and ponder
RevRandy. .And Rikkity suggested our theme of choices and opportunities
RevRandy. .which I have a feeling has to do with the impending US elections and the Canadian/Canadien elections later in the month
Elissa. .as well as life in general :)
RevRandy. .but this is a non-partisan chat, so we will stick to more spiritual matters
RevRandy. .To get us started, how about this pithy comment from her:
RevRandy. . 2,9"We don't choose our next life, we are chosen. We can refuse the choice, but
RevRandy. . 2,9we can't make one on our own. Opportunities, not choices." (11/12/95 - G#4)
RevRandy. .Boy, that goes back a long ways - 1995!
Elissa. .it's timeless
RevRandy. .But it raised up early on the theme of choices .... and opportunities ... that echo through so many
RevRandy. .And it opens up the question of our role as creators of our own journey or travelers of our own journey
RevRandy. .with its implications that while we can decide not to take something offered, we do not have the power to create that which is offered
RevRandy. .But, what do y'all see in this one?
Elissa. .choice occurs within a context, and the context is an interaction between us and what the universe provides
RevRandy. .this certainly clears away some of the determinism/free will debate
Elissa. .say more about that randy?
RevRandy. .makes it an "and" not an "or" thing
RevRandy. .OK -- sure, why not?
RevRandy. .In the deterministic world view, everything is set -- we are just pawns in an unfolding plan
RevRandy. .In the free will world view, everything is the result of our free choices -- we are the creators of the unfolding plan
RevRandy. .but here is a suggestion of a some set opportunities which we did not create and our own decision-making about whether to accept those opportunities or not
RevRandy. .so the opportunities are there, pre-set as it were, while the outcome flows from our own actions in relation to them
RevRandy. .we cannot create a new set of opportunities, but within the set offered, there are an infinite number of probable outcomes based on our reaction to them
RevRandy. .(is that enough "more"?)
TF88. .might I offer a "mundane" analogy?
Elissa. .i don't see the opportunities as being there separate from who we are... do you?
RevRandy. .only if it has enough mun in it
Elissa. .yes please tf
TF88. .I'm hungry and the store is closed, but my fridge has food in it, so I can create the meal I want using the given possibilities.
RevRandy. .like it
Elissa. .great analogy
Elissa. .here's another PtoP that expands on this i think:
Elissa. . 0,12"The world and all that is in it have always been. The story of Genesis is
Elissa. . 0,12about focusing and choosing to be there and finding fulfillment in that
Elissa. . 0,12life. And the story gives us all the clues. We have the world and life,
Elissa. . 0,12etc., and we have dominion--but that does not mean control; it means access.
Elissa. . 0,12So, we can choose to be in that world as we wish, and our days will be
Elissa. . 0,12measured by what we do creatively--just as God's work is measured, so to
Elissa. . 0,12speak, by her creativity in six days.
Elissa. . 0,12
Elissa. . 0,12"The chapter is not about God but about us; and we form 'us' in our own
Elissa. . 0,12imagining. We get what we envision and choose, and we have the potential of
Elissa. . 0,12all the time we need and one day of rest to get everything done we need to
Elissa. . 0,12do to create our own Eden." (2/9/96 - I#6)
Elissa. .we have access, not control... what does that mean...
Elissa. .to me it means that we cannot make things happen--or
Elissa. .not happen--according to our will...
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Elissa. .but we have the means
Elissa. .to use what is available to us, to take the opportunities
Elissa. .we are offered and use them to envision and create a
Elissa. .fulfilling and meaningful life
Elissa. .hi min :)
Min. .hello :)
Elissa. .so, if i want to go to a certain college, i can't make
Elissa. .that college accept my application...
Elissa. .what i can do is
Elissa. .use all my resources to make myself a good candidate so
Elissa. .that i will be accepted...
Elissa. .it's an interaction between
Elissa. .what i want and what the school is looking for, and neither
Elissa. .of us can do it alone, or by exercising our "will power."
Elissa. .one more example that speaks to the difference between
Elissa. .using our choices as remedies and using them to create
Elissa. .meaning out of opportunities for experience...
Elissa. . a plane crashes,
Elissa. .or a teen shoots someone in a high school...
Elissa. .what is the typical response of the media?
Elissa. .the first thing they want to know is what went wrong so that
Elissa. .we can fix it so it won't happen again...
Elissa. .does it happen
Elissa. .again? of course it does, because life is not controllable...
Elissa. .a focus on what opportunities for healing and connecting
Elissa. .with those who have been injured or bereaved or
Elissa. .traumatized by the event--or on creating programs to educate
Elissa. .people about how to deal with loss and trauma--would be to
Elissa. .make meaning from the experience... one perspective looks
Elissa. .to the past, the other to the future.
Elissa. .what do you all think?
ZEE. .I have been thinking about all this
Elissa. .yes, zee
Elissa. .would you share what you've been thinking about?
ZEE. .two weeks ago, i was sent to a accident site
RevRandy. .I remember you speaking about that
Elissa. .o yes, you told us about that
ZEE. .with my hubby and daughter
ZEE. .the kids have so much pain to deal with
ZEE. .i was thinking how i can help them deal with loss
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Elissa. .that's looking forward, zee... that's good to hear
Elissa. .many parents would start being overprotective of their children to try to "make sure" it didn't happen to them
Elissa. .hey mare :)
Moon. .Can i say about my experience?
TF88. .so, although we cannot control events, we can control our motivation, inspiration, action and reaction in order to find more fulfilling meaning in that event.
Elissa. .exactly tf
Elissa. .please do, moon
RevRandy. .loss is going to be part of the experience of living ... better to be prepared for it, not "sheltered" from it
Moon. .It is very strange. Whenever i'm close to water either washing dishes or taking shower,
Moon. .brushing teeth etc... i have these thoughts about
Moon. .life in general. Anyway, the other day i was thinking about my situation in life
Moon. .it might sound funny but what you said applies here
Moon. .i was thinking about buying some stocks or selling...
Moon. .as you all know last week was very rocky week.
Moon. .as i was thinking all of a sudden i realize... i can not change anything
Moon. .all i can do is use the opportunity that is given to me..
Moon. .to create my journey. And that is what exactly i did.
Moon. .Now really this sounds funny.. but at that moment
Elissa. .very cool, moon :)
Moon. .if was a very profound moment when i realized this***
RevRandy. .no, not funny -- I think I understand what you are saying
Elissa. .yes, it sounds like it was a revelation to you
RevRandy. .and your story, for me, points out one of the challenges of life
RevRandy. .to see the opportunities for what they are ... where they are
RevRandy. .not waiting for the "big" "grand" moment to come
Moon. .Indeed RR
suwan. .you mean this moment is the only moment
RevRandy. .not all of us will get stone tablets on a mountain top during a great storm
Elissa. .(that's big grand, not baby grand, tf)
RevRandy. .some of us will get insights at the kitchen sink
Elissa. .or in the shower lol
ZEE. .or right here
Elissa. .not the only moment, suwan, but full of opportunity if we're aware
RevRandy. .and some of what appear at first as "little" thoughts turn out to be revelations and life-changing
RevRandy. .this moment, as you experience it, is your moment
TF88. .(guess I'll stop waiting for that 11-footer grand E)
Elissa. .(stop waiting, tf, but never give up hope lol)
RevRandy. .Well, let me share another Point to Ponder ----
RevRandy. .and I need to suggest that you hang in there with this ... the start may leaving you scratching your head, but ....
RevRandy. . 2,13"Tonight let's emphasize tuna--how there's tuna and albacore and light and
RevRandy. . 2,13dark and white and in oil and in water, but it's all tuna. Or not. If you
RevRandy. . 2,13make a sandwich, it matters which tuna you use. So, you may have several
RevRandy. . 2,13identities going, but that's ok if you use them wisely and appropriately. So
RevRandy. . 2,13be who you were before and miss the mark; be who you will be and miss the
RevRandy. . 2,13mark; be who you want to be and miss the mark; but be who you are now, and
RevRandy. . 2,13the mark you need to focus on will line up for you. Get it. And I don't mean
RevRandy. . 2,13that which is always easy or that which seems automatically right.
RevRandy. . 2,13
RevRandy. . 2,13"An analogy: You are driving a train. Ahead there is a switch. To the right
RevRandy. . 2,13is the main line, high ball and high speed; but to the left is the mountain
RevRandy. . 2,13division. You approach the switch and you say, 'I am a crack limited. I
RevRandy. . 2,13should get the main,' or you say, 'I always get the main,' or, 'I would like
RevRandy. . 2,13to get the main.' But when you get there, the switch is for the left for the
RevRandy. . 2,13mountain division--long, slow, hard going, with lots of switchbacks and cuts
RevRandy. . 2,13and all that railroad ****. So you ask yourself, 'Is this where I am really
RevRandy. . 2,13supposed to go.' But hey, in the end you get to the terminal just the same,
RevRandy. . 2,13but the scenery dazzles and the work enlightens and you are never asked to
RevRandy. . 2,13go too fast nor beyond your capacity. And what you might not know at the
RevRandy. . 2,13time was that, if you had got the main, it was blocked by a landslide or
RevRandy. . 2,13occupied by a train on a collision course or broken in some spot or would
RevRandy. . 2,13have pushed you over your capacity. Life's switches will be aligned for
RevRandy. . 2,13where the real you needs to go. No miracles, no tragedies--just the way it
RevRandy. . 2,13is. Identity should express the sum of the person's journeys; not be the
RevRandy. . 2,13choosers of the journeys. Get it.
RevRandy. . 2,13
RevRandy. . 2,13"Spiritual Persistence works because when you truly become yourself you
RevRandy. . 2,13become part of a larger identity--not the other way around. And that's
RevRandy. . 2,13enough for me and you and now. The other way proposes the reverse, and it
RevRandy. . 2,13says that you only find yourself by participating again in something larger
RevRandy. . 2,13and other than self--lose your identity; while Spiritual Persistence says
RevRandy. . 2,13find it...or be a tea lady." (4/11/99 - V#40)
RevRandy. .Here, again, is this theme about the so-called choices in life
RevRandy. .needing to be along your path
RevRandy. .and not some other path
RevRandy. .but, I sense that we often have a temptation
RevRandy. .as human beings are wont to do
RevRandy. .to want to be able to not only dictate which ones we choose
RevRandy. .but also to dictate the pool from which we will choose
RevRandy. .but one of the problems with that is that we assume that we know the outcome
RevRandy. .of our choices
RevRandy. .we like to believe that we know that choice a will lead to result A, and choice b will lead to result B
RevRandy. .but maybe result A was meant for someone else
RevRandy. .and result B will not prove possible or meaningful for you
RevRandy. .So, I resonate with the phrase:
RevRandy. ."Identity should express the sum of the person's journeys; not be the choosers of the journeys."
RevRandy. .Seeing ourselves, our identity as expressions of the opportunities we have elected in the past
RevRandy. .rather than seeing our identity as being the force that shapes the opportunities
RevRandy. .yes, who we are will have a relationship to what will come our way
RevRandy. .by our nature we will be able to see some opportunities and not others
RevRandy. .by our nature we will be more willing to follow one opportunity rather than some others
RevRandy. .but the experiences that radiate from the choices will shape our unfolding identity to a greater extent
RevRandy. .than our already unfolded identities will shape those choices
RevRandy. .Or, at least, that is what I see in this ..... but what about you?
Moon. .How do we describe the moments when we have only one choice to choose!
RevRandy. .Moon -- can you suggest such a moment?
Elissa. .great question, moon
Moon. .I don't remember any but has happened to all of us
Moon. .many times when we have only one choice...
Moon. .or that choice happens to be the only and the best choice
RevRandy. .I remember some times when I "thought" I had only one choice, but in looking back I realized that I only saw one choice
Elissa. .i think the first thing to ask at a time like that is, do i really have only one choice or is it that i'm only seeing one choice as possible?
Moon. .Yes you are right ... so WE see only one choice.
Elissa. .maybe the alternative seems less desirable, but we can't know for sure what learning and experiences it might bring
RevRandy. ..... and I would like to follow up on that word "best" .... I think we often speak about having a choice that is the "best" one,
RevRandy. .but that qualitative sense is shaped by our past, not by a future we have not yet experienced
RevRandy. .In the movie, "Babette's Feast"
RevRandy. .the young officer thinks that he has to make a choice between love and service/duty
RevRandy. .and so makes what he thinks will be the best choice
RevRandy. .and believes he has lost the other opportunity
RevRandy. .but later in his life, when he returns the decorated General
RevRandy. .and once more see his once-beloved, he realizes that she has always been his beloved
RevRandy. .that she moved with him in spirit in all of his days
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RevRandy. .that when one chooses from the heart, one does not lose what is not chosen,
RevRandy. .he thought he had only one choice, but in fact he always had the potential to have both outcomes
Elissa. .we can't lose what is ours
Elissa. .hey angelv :)
angelv. .Hi all
RevRandy. .choice may mean we move in one direction, but it does not mean the other direction is gone,
suwan. .possibly we are too rooted in the physical to always see that
Elissa. .she became part of who he was, even though he chose to leave her physically
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RevRandy. .suwan, I think so, as if something will be gone from us, in a physical sense, when spiritual reality does not work that way
Elissa. .sure, suwan
RevRandy. .hi pro
Elissa. .hey prosub! good to see you back :)
suwan. .well yes, I think all of us who have lost someone physically know that feeling
Prosub. .ty Elissa. Good to be back
Prosub. .HI Randy
RevRandy. .We find ourselves chosen for a path we would not have selected, thinking it is a path of only loss, but then some find that what was truly ours can never be lost
RevRandy. .what has become part of our identity cannot be chosen away
Elissa. .and you're right, suwan, it's very hard to remember all of this when we're facing a choice that seems as though it will determine the rest of our life
suwan. .yes I am doing some things like that right now
Moon. .What you say is worth framing and keeping for good RR :)
Elissa. .yes, randy, well said!
RevRandy. .I am just reflecting what Rikkity reminded us of in our grief
Elissa. .nothing we say is original lol
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RevRandy. .well, my trusty clock has rung 10 o'clock, and so we will take our usual 10 minute break ... but please stay to chat
Elissa. .hey angel and nixie!
suwan. .hey Nixie!
Nixie. .:( Hi
RevRandy. .and we will be back with some more Points to Ponder on choices and opportunities
suwan. .hey angel
RevRandy. .hello Nixie
Nixie. .Guess I missed it again
Angel. .hey, there everyone
Elissa. .wow, nix it's great to see you!
Nixie. .I tried to hurry
RevRandy. .nope -- we will be back in about 10 minutes with lots more
Nixie. .great to see you ALL too!
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Nixie. .Oh cool
Elissa. .chat away, gang :)
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Angel. .Could I get a quickie synopsis of the topic,, please
TF88. ."Choices and opportunities"
Angel. .thanks TF88 :)
Moon. .Aren't we glad to choose to be here tonight:)
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RevRandy. .welcome back to SP -- as we continue our consideration of choices and opportunities
Elissa. .and have i got a PtoP for you! along with some thoughts of my own, of course:
Elissa. . 0,12"There are other worlds. But do we have choice, is there a cosmic travel
Elissa. . 0,12agent, no. But we choose to make opportunities out of experiences. Look,
Elissa. . 0,12you are so many places that some have to seem real to you in relation to your
Elissa. . 0,12needs. You choose to see and experience and remember what's important.
Elissa. . 0,12Quick, name every movie you've forgotten. See, can't do it--even though
Elissa. . 0,12there are many. You were there when they were screened and your eyes beheld
Elissa. . 0,12them, but they are not real for you. So too with lives. Been there and not
Elissa. . 0,12done that. Real for others maybe; but then, what's not real now can become
Elissa. . 0,12real as you become more fulfilled and that which was lost is found--in those
Elissa. . 0,12moments when you suddenly get it without any clue from what you knew you
Elissa. . 0,12knew.
Elissa. . 0,12
Elissa. . 0,12"Sometimes what happens is not in your remembered sequence, but is in your
Elissa. . 0,12experienced sequence as a resource. Kind of like kinetic and potential
Elissa. . 0,12energy. We live with our kinetic memories, but there is always --for all but
Elissa. . 0,12first-timers--potential. Think of potential memories, which our act of
Elissa. . 0,12remembering and sequencing bring into active reality for us. And, at the
Elissa. . 0,12same time, some drop back from active to 'stored.' And, as we fulfill, our
Elissa. . 0,12active energy rises as we use and meaningfully sequence more. We begin all
Elissa. . 0,12action, no meaning, but in time we gain meaning; and when we have both we
Elissa. . 0,12are energetic little sons of bitches and we can move on without the need for
Elissa. . 0,12energy outside ourselves and so the evolvement, the complexity, is a form of
Elissa. . 0,12enhancement--not compensation for any lack. And that's all I am going to say
Elissa. . 0,12about that. Blech. Too heavy." (8/30/99 - I#37)
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Elissa. .one thing this is about to me is possibilities...
Elissa. .we cannot access
Elissa. .what we're not aware of, and the more we learn and remember
Elissa. .the greater our awareness becomes...
Elissa. .so there are choices that may
Elissa. .not be available to us now, but that doesn't mean they won't be
Elissa. .available in the future...
Elissa. .maybe we just have not experienced that
Elissa. .part of the sequence which would bring it into our awareness as
Elissa. .an opportunity...
Elissa. .so the more we learn and remember, the wider
Elissa. .our context becomes and the more possibilities we are aware of
Elissa. .as "real"...
Elissa. .if we continually look to the past for our answers
Elissa. .and base our choices on what has already been, then our opportunities
Elissa. .do not expand...
Elissa. .look at what is happening in the Middle East...
Elissa. .the same issues get played out over and over again, because the
Elissa. .focus is on the wounds of the past rather than the creative
Elissa. .possibilities of the future...
Elissa. .it's the same in any argument...
Elissa. .the surest way to have an argument that frustrates both parties
Elissa. .is to dredge up perceived past wrongs and differences...
Elissa. .the surest way to have an argument that leads to evolution and
Elissa. .growth is for both parties to say, "ok, this isn't working as
Elissa. .well as we'd like it to...
Elissa. .where do we go from here to make it better?"
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Elissa. .those are my thoughts on this... what are yours?
Moon. .When people make bad choices (criminals) are chosen to make these choices.. are these choices are lined for them to choose?
Elissa. .and welcome fang and garthmom :)
Elissa. .moon, maybe they only see those choices
Moon. .I see
fang. .hey nixie, elissa and rev
RevRandy. .hey fang
RevRandy. .if someone comes to the choice looking to be energized by them, a one-way flow of energy, then the range of choices will be more limited
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Elissa. .i think that argument analogy can also apply to arguments we have with ourselves
Elissa. .good point randy
RevRandy. .(When you argue with yourself, do you always lose, or always win?)
Elissa. .hey dani :)
fang. .i always win
dani. .hi elissa!
Elissa. .there's no winning or losing involved :)
Elissa. .just experiencing
RevRandy. .but then, fang, you lose --- how about transcending it all
Elissa. .(how was that for enigmatic)
dani. .what are we experiencing tonight
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Elissa. .we're talking about how we make choices from the opportunities offered to us, dani
Elissa. .lol fang!!!
RevRandy. .like it f-t
fang-transcending. .i've been working on it
Elissa. .good for you :)
fang-transcending. .i think it's a lifetime process
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RevRandy. .I was intrigued in the passage you shared, Elissa, with the concept of potentials
RevRandy. .how if we make choices solely on what will be presently available
RevRandy. .we will get short-term energy, or short term meaning, but perhaps at the expense of long term potentials
RevRandy. .Which is the challenge of choice -- to know when our choices open us up, or sustain us, or block us
Angel. .Aren't choices and opportunities closely tied in with the concept of manifestation?
Angel. .For instance ... think and you shall receive?
Elissa. .yes, angel, in the sense that we will find manifested that which we can envision to choose...
Elissa. .but only if the opportunity is there for us to take
Elissa. .we can't manifest anything by sheer force of will
Elissa. .at least, that's my perspective
RevRandy. .but what if you think "I am hungry", and then we are offered two seeming choices .... a bowl of mush and a stick
RevRandy. .which do we choose?
Elissa. .how does the stick taste?
RevRandy. .when the bowl of mush will soon be gone,
RevRandy. .but the stick can become a fishing pole
RevRandy. .(it tastes like root beer)
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Elissa. .i like that, randy
Elissa. .hey fs :)
firespirit. .Good Evennninggggggg!
RevRandy. .how do we know the full spectrum of our choices that manifest if we do not radically open ourselves beyond the already known?
Elissa. .fs wins the prize for the longest word lol
RevRandy. .how we choose may in fact limit our choices
RevRandy. .why we choose may in fact limit our choices
Angel. .How do we open ourselves beyond the already known ... through meditation?
RevRandy. .Angel - I think there are many paths to that .... all of which require that we move beyond fear
Elissa. .angel, i think one way to do that is to be willing to move forward without having every single detail known
Elissa. .to trust ourselves...
RevRandy. .Elissa -- it sounds like you are adding the element of control into the discussion
Elissa. .control was in it from the beginning lol
RevRandy. .or, actually, a willingness to let go of control
Elissa. .yes, to let go and trust that the universe will provide what we need
Elissa. .and also to examine what may be holding us back...
Elissa. .to see where we may not have that trust and how we lost it
Elissa. .know thyself
RevRandy. .reminds me of the idea of hope as Rikkity offered it to us ... not that a certain outcome will happen, but that there will be meaning on the other side of any outcome
Elissa. .hope yes, and faith and self-awareness and courage
Elissa. .a willingness to take personal responsibility for our actions, too
RevRandy. .Well, how about one last Point to Ponder for the evening?
RevRandy. . 0,12"So listen. Cryptic message: Dogma is not always religious. And, in
RevRandy. . 0,12late-breaking news, nothing is new. This is about choosing your lessons.
RevRandy. . 0,12Choose, choose... huh... only if you have unidimensional existences do you
RevRandy. . 0,12have choices like that; but in fields choice is not an issue. See, you
RevRandy. . 0,12proceed through all the opportunities and then the meaning is in the total
RevRandy. . 0,12pattern, not a single choice. Ok, try this. If it were choice and you were
RevRandy. . 0,12born in Cleveland and died in San Diego, then the pattern is a life trip
RevRandy. . 0,12from Cleveland to San Diego. But if it is about the 8 months in Pittsburgh
RevRandy. . 0,12and the 10 years back in Cleveland and the 5 years in Kankakee and 0 time in
RevRandy. . 0,12Kansas and 5 years in Florida, then San Diego, that's a different
RevRandy. . 0,12picture--much more complex, and not about a choice to move from Cleveland to
RevRandy. . 0,12San Diego.
RevRandy. . 0,12
RevRandy. . 0,12"So, ask these people if they can identify a moment when they decided to be
RevRandy. . 0,12open to spiritual truths without any precedent events and subsequent events.
RevRandy. . 0,12Show me the choice, show me the choice--without it being in a field of
RevRandy. . 0,12experiences. And how do they know that what they call a choice is all played
RevRandy. . 0,12out and at its fulfillment. Tell me that... how. What they assume was choice
RevRandy. . 0,12and effect may be inconsequential in a larger vision. They say, 'I must have
RevRandy. . 0,12chosen these experiences.' How do they know the experiences didn't choose
RevRandy. . 0,12them. Was my death about you or me, none of us know. Maybe it was about
RevRandy. . 0,12arfer... rrrrrr. But still our pattern, our field, is enriched-- even by
RevRandy. . 0,12that which was not chosen. Funny how everyone wants to be the subject, not
RevRandy. . 0,12the object, of the sentence called Life. Hey, that's egoism of the highest
RevRandy. . 0,12order.
RevRandy. . 0,12
RevRandy. . 0,12"It's getting being and doing confused. If you are defined by your choices
RevRandy. . 0,12then you are always behind, because there are always more things you didn't
RevRandy. . 0,12choose than that you did... unless the field is infinite, and then in
RevRandy. . 0,12infinity no one choice any has meaning does. So, a logical problem: Stay
RevRandy. . 0,12finite and your choices are meaningless for lack of field, or be infinite
RevRandy. . 0,12and the idea of choice is meaningless for lack of context. Get it." (12/17/99 - I#40)
RevRandy. .And now the concept of a field gets introduced
RevRandy. .in which all of the individual "choices" are seen as part of a pattern
RevRandy. .and any one choice has no meaning, per se, outside of its placement within the larger schema
RevRandy. .And this insistence that if we see choices outside of context, they are meaningless
RevRandy. .but in the totality of context, in which all things are possible, they are also meaningless
RevRandy. .being absorbed into the pattern
Angel. .Then that would explain the "All is one" concept, right?
RevRandy. .At a fundamental level, yes ..... that nothing is ever separate from all-that-is
RevRandy. .and no choices exist outside of it
RevRandy. .or have any abiding meaning separate from it
Elissa. .all is connected... or related
RevRandy. .I am really struck by this passage
RevRandy. . 0,12 Funny how everyone wants to be the subject, not
RevRandy. . 0,12the object, of the sentence called Life. Hey, that's egoism of the highest
RevRandy. . 0,12order.
Moon. .Yes i wrote it down. It is one of those sentences!
Elissa. .sure is, moon
RevRandy. .But isn't that what all of this talk about choice is about ... trying to see ourselves as the subject, not the object of life
Elissa. .no, trying to understand our role in choice, i think
RevRandy. .yet, to get here, we are inherently the object of some other creative process, and what we think of as being our volition now will produce an object that will include us down the road
RevRandy. .if we turn our thoughts away from seeing choices as being assertions of will
RevRandy. .and instead see them as fulfillments of our spiritual potentials
RevRandy. .of part of our process of becoming what we will become
RevRandy. .one. . ?
firespirit. .Our process to enlightenment...I mean.."All is one"
Elissa. .yes, a process of infinite evolution toward ultimate connection
RevRandy. .just had a thought (I know, I should watch that) .... but an interesting test would be to examine the extent to which our "choices" seek to bring us into connection with other, or to bring us into differentiation
RevRandy. .if we espouse a belief in that ultimate unity, are we living out choices that tend in that direction?
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firespirit. .in that we will live in unity...and treat others as we would treat ourselves..
RevRandy. .yes -- do we have both the vision and the will to act according to that vision
Elissa. .but would others want to be treated as we treat ourselves? some of us don't treat ourselves very well
firespirit. .That is a good point....
RevRandy. .that is why I would hold up the standard of a vision, an ideal toward which to tend, rather than any personal experiential reality
Elissa. .let's make sure that we are focused in a direction that will lead us to where we need to go, as well as in connection with others
RevRandy. .But, I realise that this is pretty much a two or three way conversation --- what say ye, ye many silent ones?
Elissa. .hey gardenspirit :)
Elissa. .(not calling on you, just saying hi)
firespirit. .To learn to love oneself is part of the journey I think...
Gardenspirit. .Hello Elissa
Moon. .So RR as you said we should focus on our choices as patterns that makes us complete and makes us better and more evolved.
suwan. .well I'm lost
Elissa. .where would you like to be found, suwan?
RevRandy. .Moon - I think so .... asking if the overall direction, not any specific choice, is leading us toward wholeness and connection
suwan. .I'm still out in the field of choices
RevRandy. .do you choose to be there?
Elissa. .oustanding in your field? lol
Moon. .yes absolutely!
Gardenspirit. .What about the things we are creating and how to see the connections?
Gardenspirit. .in what is ours and what is not?
RevRandy. .well, remember, in a field of choices, getting from A to B is not along only one possible route -- no automatic outcomes of any one set of choices
RevRandy. .Garden - if we are creating it, can any of it not be connected to us?
RevRandy. .but then the other question - how to see that connection .... which I think by acknowledging that the connection is there even if we do not sense or see it
RevRandy. .if we do not YET sense or see it
RevRandy. .which opens us to looking for it
Gardenspirit. .yet like that word
RevRandy. .it is all in process, and in process, everything yet possible
Gardenspirit. .I require less Yets and more looking for
Elissa. .yes... being open to the possibilities
Elissa. .seek and ye shall find :)
Elissa. .that doesn't mean look backwards
RevRandy. .ask, and you shall be given the check ;-)
firespirit. .knock and the door will be open..
RevRandy. .and you will find that doors will open where you didn't even know there were doors
Elissa. .learn to see everything as a door
Elissa. .and where there wouldn't BE a door for anyone else
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RevRandy. .wow- WT is here
Elissa. .wow wt!!! you on pacific time tonight? lol
WhiteTiger. .busy with fam stuff ;)
Gardenspirit. .Hello WT
Elissa. .sure sure... you have a note?
WhiteTiger. .howdy all :)
Moon. .Should we look for signs as well as doors RR? When choosing our choices?
WhiteTiger. .nope.. can't carry a note Elissa, my tune bucket got no bottom ;)
Moon. .What i mean is if we did not get a good sign that choice can not be good either right?
RevRandy. .yes, moon, sometimes we need to follow signs that show us where to look for doors that seem hidden
RevRandy. .I guess, by way of summation -- we all have an infinite set of keys, some even to doors we do not yet know exist for us ... but if we open ourselves to trying to find the use for all those keys, the future is wide open to all possibilities of meaning and fulfillment
Angel. .But the way I see it, the field of choices is not linear ... going from A to B ... and connecting to one another like connect the dots... it's a constant evolution, ever changing with no particular pattern and yet we continue to participate in this swirling sea of possibilities, ever changing according to circumstances ... I hope this makes sense
Gardenspirit. .science has proven there is order in chaos
RevRandy. .Angel - makes great sense!
Elissa. .yes angel! that makes wonderful sense to me!
Angel. .thanks RR:)
RevRandy. .and only in a field sense does it work
Angel. .thanks Elissa
WhiteTiger. .sure angel... we navigate the ea of probabilities, selecting those that offer what we need
RevRandy. .for a linear sense will make it look impossible
RevRandy. .(I'll be good, I promise)
WhiteTiger. .aw shucks, I just was warming up the aardvark
fang. .oh no i get sea sick
Elissa. .a linear sense will make it seem like we have to decide between the "best" choice and the rest... it makes us think in dualistic terms... either/or
RevRandy. .And since it is now 10:59ET -- it is easy for me to say that (incoming anteaters!)
RevRandy. .yes, it is 11 --- and time for us to close up shop for another Sunday evening of SP
Elissa. .o the boys are being silly again lol
Elissa. .thank you everyone for a wonderful discussion!
WhiteTiger. .chaos= "that's too complex a pattern for me to perceive" (imo)
RevRandy. .thank you
Angel. .great stuff, guys! thanks!
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa. . 0,13!Elissa rainbow.mid 13,0 :o)
RevRandy. .chaos just seems too illogical, doesn't it
kxkoda. .thank you all.
firespirit. .Good night everyone....(((((((room)))))))
Elissa. .we hope it's been helpful for you
Elissa. .(((((((love you all))))))))))
RevRandy. .good night all -
Moon. .It was a wonderful lesson .. Thank you so much RR and Elissa..Until next time.
Gardenspirit. .Thank you RevRandy so very much
Moon. .Good night
RevRandy. .see you all, real soon ...
fang. .yes rr elissa thank you
Gardenspirit. .was great
Elissa. .thanks moon... next sunday we talk about Time
kxkoda. .good night all.
WhiteTiger. .oh cool... that one I don't wanna miss
Elissa. .be on time, wt :)
RevRandy. .say hi to hyper
WhiteTiger. .wilco to both
*** RevRandy has quit IRC (QUIT: Live and Enjoy! Learn and Remember! And, O, what it journey it will be! )
suwan. .goodnight everyone
Elissa. .nite suwan
Gardenspirit. .Love and sweet dreams to all
WhiteTiger. .okie dokie... I'm off. Sorry I missed the doin's
Gardenspirit. .May you love with your heart and lead with your soul
Elissa. .nite garden
Elissa. .awww thank you, sweetie :)
ZEE. .Goodnite all , thank you
WhiteTiger. .nite Elissa :)
Elissa. .nite zee... good to see you
Session Time: Mon Nov 06 00:00:00 2000
Logs of Previous Chats
Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author: the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker,M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright ©1999-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.
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