Session Start: Sun Oct 29 20:42:49 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Grief, Death, and the Afterlife" 2,9Sunday 2,11October 29 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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Mystical_One . . .peace and blessings ..new to here...
WhiteTiger . . .welcome :) it's a fun place
Mystical_One . . .hi White tiger...thanks
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Elissa . . .hi gang!!!
RevRandy . . .hey E
Deni . . .hiya Lissa-pooh :)
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Elissa . . .hey deni-face :)
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Elissa . . .it's good to see new faces here!
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Elissa . . .hey fs!
RevRandy . . .hello fire
firespirit . . .Good eveningggggg everyone!
RevRandy . . .welcome everyone -- it's spiritual persistence time
Elissa . . .yay
RevRandy . . .Our weekly chance to chat about many things
RevRandy . . .And a special welcome to any who may be new here tonight
RevRandy . . .so, to get started, we usually give a short intro to what this is all about ....
RevRandy . . .Miss Elissa, if you please
WhiteTiger . . .*drumroll*
Elissa . . .of course, your reverence :)
RevRandy . . .tada
RevRandy . . .(what grace, what manners, she is amazing)
Elissa . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . .I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
Elissa . . .a Master's degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
Elissa . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa . . .She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for the
Elissa . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . .Ponder.
Elissa . . .It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives.
Elissa . . .We are here to
Elissa . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . .or email Randy (RevRandy@spiritualpersistence.com)
Elissa . . .or me (ebb@spiritualpersistence.com) any time.
Elissa . . .And please let us know if you would like to be on our email list
Elissa . . .for chat notices and Points to Ponder.
Elissa . . .Thanks for coming... and again, welcome!
Elissa . . .Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
Deni . . .vive1 . . .how do you communicate with her?
Elissa . . .ok, vive
vive1 . . .please
Elissa . . .we communicate in many ways...
vive1 . . .angels?
Elissa . . .the points to ponder come mainly through automatic writing...
Elissa . . .some come through channeling right here at chats
vive1 . . .i find it hard to meditate
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Elissa . . .other communications have come in mediumship conversations,
Elissa . . .dreams,
Elissa . . .visions, etc., etc.
RevRandy . . .She finds a variety of ways to connect to us, and we to her
Elissa . . .meditation is only one way... not necessary for communication
vive1 . . .i dream about my father, he died last january
Elissa . . .so you've had communication with him!
vive1 . . .i hug him in my dreams
vive1 . . .it feels good
Elissa . . .wonderful :) those hugs are so comforting
Deni . . .:)
RevRandy . . .what a great connection and communication
vive1 . . .in my dream i know he is dead
Elissa . . .but he feels alive?
vive1 . . .but he lets me know he is there
Elissa . . .((((((vive)))))) he is
vive1 . . .he is alive in my dreams i mean
Elissa . . .yes
vive1 . . .but i know his presence is special
Elissa . . .i'm sure it is special to you, vive
vive1 . . .when i hugged him tightly, he said ouch, because he was sore for the pm
Elissa . . .thank you for sharing that with us, vive
RevRandy . . .Before we begin our sessions,
RevRandy . . .we always offer a simple invocation
RevRandy . . .and I invite you to join in the spirit of these words:
RevRandy . . . 0,2May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . . 0,2Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . . 0,2And guided in all ways gracious.
RevRandy . . .Namaste
Elissa . . .amen~
Deni . . .Amen
ZEE . . .Amen
WhiteTiger . . .aho
firespirit . . .lovely..Amen!
Amy . . .Amen
* Moon sends angels to watch over ~~* ~~* ~~* ~~* nobody in particular ~~* ~~* ~~* ~~*
fang . . .amen
cin . . .amen
lcb . . .amen
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RevRandy . . .Hey TF
Deni . . .hiya TF
Elissa . . .((((((tf))))))
WhiteTiger . . .tf :)
TF88 . . .:)
RevRandy . . .Usually when we gather, we have some points to ponder to share with you that have come from Rikkity
RevRandy . . .but every once in a while we have the privilege of
RevRandy . . .being given a chance to connect with other spirit friends of Rikkity
RevRandy . . .and this last week we had that opportunity
RevRandy . . .so tonight we will be sharing four conversations we had
RevRandy . . .with four different spirits
RevRandy . . .on some related insights
RevRandy . . .And as is often our mode, I will share the conversations (one at a time) and Elissa and I will offer some opening comments,
RevRandy . . .and then the floor will be open to wherever the thoughts from the spirits may take us
RevRandy . . .OK?
firespirit . . .k
ZEE . . .k
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Deni . . .hiya dave :)
Deni . . .hiya Marie :)
Dave . . .hello
Elissa . . .hey marie and dave :)
Marie1 . . .hi everyone, i made it early....hehehe
* Dave : Hello everyone!
RevRandy . . .hey dave and marie
Elissa . . .i noticed! and you get a gold star for that, marie
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RevRandy . . .hello Jess
Dave . . .hello Jess
* Elissa pastes a big gold star on marie's forehead
RevRandy . . .well, here is the first conversation we had this past week:
RevRandy . . . 2,9VT:
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Hello. I am more than startled to be here. I had it on my calendar, so to
RevRandy . . . 2,9speak--which is no easy task without time--for another set of circumstances.
RevRandy . . . 2,9But isn't that what grief is also about--having to deal now with what you
RevRandy . . . 2,9thought was scheduled for some other time or place or person. Isn't the cry
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 2,9of ‘Why me' actually about that and not about a sense of divine persecution.
RevRandy . . . 2,9We say ‘Why me,' meaning it wasn't in our plan so therefore how could it be
RevRandy . . . 2,9happening. Look at all the old people who do not grieve their deaths,
RevRandy . . . 2,9because by then it fits the plan or they've run out of other things to do.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Grief is a visible expression that we have to reorder the assumed sequence
RevRandy . . . 2,9of our lives. And it is often easier to do that if we think we are forced
RevRandy . . . 2,9beyond our will than if we choose to do so. Think of grief if you would take
RevRandy . . . 2,9a proactive role--say openly, ‘Things have changed from what I presumed they
RevRandy . . . 2,9would be, and now I choose to presume in this new way.' It would not be
RevRandy . . . 2,9grief as we know it. Grief is the stage of holding onto the old presumptions
RevRandy . . . 2,9while our experience moves on. And the first sign of moving beyond grief is
RevRandy . . . 2,9when we look forward, not back, and ask not ‘Why me' but ‘What now.'
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Grief can be a tool of realignment, or a trap. And you each get to choose
RevRandy . . . 2,9which it will be. Can you still sense your power, or did it die with the
RevRandy . . . 2,9lost one; and if it did die, what does that say about the energy
RevRandy . . . 2,9relationship you had with them. Hmmm. And with that I go." (10/27/2000)
RevRandy . . .Yes, tonight we are thinking about grief, death, and the afterlife -- and lead off with grief
RevRandy . . .And for my comments I focus on the line:
RevRandy . . ."Grief can be a tool of realignment, or a trap."
RevRandy . . .If grief is a tool that can tell us that what we had presumed would be the future will not be the future
RevRandy . . .if we can sense that it is a messenger, of sorts, trying to bring the message that things have changed
RevRandy . . .then we have, in our grief, learned.
RevRandy . . .But if that grief is about trapping us into being absorbed by our loss, focusing on what was lost,
RevRandy . . .and especially on what future was lost, even though we had not even had it yet
RevRandy . . .then grief becomes a stopping place.
RevRandy . . .Does our grief serve us, or do we serve the grief?
RevRandy . . .And I speak from my own experience
RevRandy . . .of having been, for a time, locked in a feeling of utter loss,
RevRandy . . .and identifying that loss as much with a loss of how I expected things to be
RevRandy . . .as with a loss of what had actually been
RevRandy . . .until I began to see that what had been could never be lost
RevRandy . . .and what had not yet been could not be lost unless I focused on it as if it were a given
RevRandy . . .And surprisingly, when I began to take that to heart was when I found Rikkity more real in my life
RevRandy . . .When we give up the loss of illusions we can begin to be open anew to realities in our lives, even if those realities take forms we never expected
RevRandy . . .So, that has been my take on this .... although we only talked with VT 2 days ago and it often takes time to sink in ...
Elissa . . .sometimes a lonnnnnnggggggggg time lol
RevRandy . . .what do y'all see in these words -- do they strike a chord with you?
WhiteTiger . . .in this context, illusions= delusions, imo
RevRandy . . .or hopes, or assumptions, or projections
RevRandy . . .when you read the passage, what do you think about?
Elissa . . .i like the idea of grief being what we didn't expect, and of how different it would be if it were our own choice... and how little we would probably choose change if it were!
WhiteTiger . . ."tool of realignment" seems apropos... a radical interval twixt old and new...
firespirit . . .I think about the first few minutes after I heard about my dad's suicide...I was lost and fell in a trap but later I seen the light so to speak..
Elissa . . .yes, good way to put it wt
RevRandy . . .fs - what happened to help you "see the light"
Elissa . . .in the beginning, it's like falling into an abyss isn't it
firespirit . . .I seen my dad in many new ways...adc's, dreams, etc...
TF88 . . .and interestingly...time seems to "stand still" as if it doesn't exist ;)
firespirit . . .He was my messenger..
firespirit . . .Yes...time did stand still for about a week..
WhiteTiger . . .interesting
Elissa . . .true tf :) and that sense of what is real becoming warped can be our first signpost to a new reality
RevRandy . . .the old becomes morphed into the new
firespirit . . .and still is my messenger....
WhiteTiger . . .but the old does that every microsecond, RR
Elissa . . .and how often do we choose to see that, wt
Elissa . . .it's so easy to focus on the familiar and the known
RevRandy . . .yes, it does ... but in grief I think there is both almost a loss of a moment, and then a sudden awareness of that reality
WhiteTiger . . .every microsecond, Elissa ;)
Elissa . . .lol well, now we do... and maybe you always have
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Elissa . . .but that isn't the norm :)
firespirit . . .For me it seemed I was looking at my life as though I was in a movie...
RevRandy . . .you know that sensation when you blink your eyes and something looks different in the blink of an eye - that's the sense
* WhiteTiger scans nick list, don't see no "norm" ;)
Elissa . . .yes, as if it was apart from me, somehow... and it was
Elissa . . .rofl wt!
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Elissa . . .hahahahahaha
WhiteTiger . . .that disconnect... the sense of being adrift, with no familiar landmarks or moorings
Elissa . . .that sense is telling us that our life as we knew it exists no longer
RevRandy . . .is it like being in a fog ... wherein we think we know where we are, but then it lifts and we find ourselves in a new land
firespirit . . .Yes..I understand that..my life has changed a great deal since that day...
Elissa . . .and it is our choice whether or not to change with it, fs
RevRandy . . .and it was, for me, change in ways I could not have predicted, or even understood
WhiteTiger . . .drifting ain't a bad way of life, long as ya got one compass point to plot yer position by
firespirit . . .Yes.....and I decided one day...that I must move on....
RevRandy . . .but compass points can't warn you of the shoals hiding in the fog
RevRandy . . .and I remember feeling like I may have had a compass point (my sense of faith) but all the old maps were outdated
WhiteTiger . . .if ya got the right compass point, the shoals don't matter.. they are part of the journey ;)
TF88 . . .um, what's the "right" compass point?
WhiteTiger . . .the creator, of course... imo all else is ephemeral and transitory
RevRandy . . .how do you know if you got the "right" one? (ala TF)
firespirit . . .my dad is a messenger from the creator and took me some time to see that way.
Elissa . . .i think that compass point is what we each need to find for ourselves
Elissa . . .you know it because when you find it your life becomes meaningful again
WhiteTiger . . .right Elissa :) endless paths, no two the same
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Elissa . . .or meaningful for the first time :)
Elissa . . .hi toolman
toolman . . .hello elissa
RevRandy . . .well, here comes another conversation we had on Friday:
RevRandy . . . 2,9GR:
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Hi. I'm dead. Death, what's it like. Well, there's white light and small
RevRandy . . . 2,9bells and sweet scents and calm pastures and dark places and ogres and
RevRandy . . . 2,9abysses and fear and love and... hey, wait a minute, that's life and death.
RevRandy . . . 2,9Why do so many think of death as so different from life. But first, an
RevRandy . . . 2,9analysis. Are we talking death or death. Death, as in the experience of no
RevRandy . . . 2,9longer being alive--as in speaking of one's death, or death as a state of
RevRandy . . . 2,9continuing being--as in being dead.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Death, as in dying, is about moving in familiar ways to something
RevRandy . . . 2,9unfamiliar. The experience of death will not be that removed from the
RevRandy . . . 2,9experience of life; but what you get to will be different. Have to learn how
RevRandy . . . 2,9not to be physical. And that isn't easy, which is why so many recently
RevRandy . . . 2,9passed appear physically to the living--mostly for themselves, as they
RevRandy . . . 2,9change over to spirit totally.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"And, at the moment of death, you know what happens. Nothing. It's a
RevRandy . . . 2,9process, not a moment. Ok, I feel an afterlife coming on. Bye-bye." (10/27/2000)
toolman . . .well put
firespirit . . .cute..I think..
RevRandy . . .how so?
firespirit . . .A simple way to explain the death process..
firespirit . . .or life process...
WhiteTiger . . .oooo... side note for future topic... gender & the afterlife
RevRandy . . .interesting concept -- that the physical manifestation of spirit close upon death is about the spirit not yet knowing how to be non-physical
TF88 . . .randy, that raises a question for me
Elissa . . .ok, wt :)
firespirit . . .Explains many things in my house....afterlife with my relatives..and the after death communications.
WhiteTiger . . .RR- almost all NDE cases report that "not knowing how to deal with being non-physical" thing
TF88 . . .wouldn't it depend on how many experiences one has had crossing over as to how quickly one adapts to being non-physical again?
RevRandy . . .TF - I think it is less about how many, and more about how much the spirit has learned and remembered
RevRandy . . .has gained from the experience of the transition
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TF88 . . .yes, that is actually what I meant...poor choice of words on my part
Elissa . . .that makes sense, randy... although i suspect first-timers have a very tough time of it
RevRandy . . .I know some people who fly and have jet lag every time, and others who have increasingly found ways to overcome it
WhiteTiger . . .tf- I wouldn't think so... the baggage accumulated from other trips is shed before the current lifetime... what remains is the condition of the spirit, not so much the experiences that did the shaping
toolman . . .good
TF88 . . .hmmmmm, not sure I agree with that WT
WhiteTiger . . .good! :)
toolman . . .you are right i think
RevRandy . . .OK - TF in this corner, WT in that corner, at the sound of the bell, come out discussing
TF88 . . .since I remember several past lives and there are others who can recall their previous passings
toolman . . .lol
TF88 . . .(there are NO corners here!)
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TF88 . . .:)
WhiteTiger . . .TF- but do you recall the process of transition twixt alive and dead?
Elissa . . .Papa actually said to me after his death that it was Rikkity helping him to remember past transitions that eased the process for him
TF88 . . .WT, not I, but others do recall
jac . . .if we do not remember our past life then how do we benefit from the hard lessons we learn during a lifetime???
Elissa . . .hi sugah :)
TF88 . . .oh interesting Elissa!
Elissa . . .yes i thought so, too
RevRandy . . .do we have to consciously remember to spiritually remember?
toolman . . .i dont think so
TF88 . . .jac...we normally only remember past life experiences when they directly relate with something we're experiencing now
WhiteTiger . . .jac- the spirit is shaped by the experience... the chair is still a chair after the tools are put away
Elissa . . .jac, those learnings become part of who we are
TF88 . . .but that is not to say the knowledge of the experiences are not with us
RevRandy . . .or the impact of the knowledge of the experience
TF88 . . .right, good point
jac . . .so how is losing my only child during this lifetime will help me in another lifetime?
RevRandy . . .few people can actually remember pain in this life, but we all learn and hopefully remember from the experience of it
Elissa . . .it's not the event of the loss that will help you, jac, but what you learn from it...
Elissa . . .what you learn from it is what you'll take with you
jac . . .thank you
Elissa . . .does that make sense?
jac . . .yes, because just in 6 months i have learned alot and changed in alot of ways Elissa
RevRandy . . .jac -- I think I want to add some more -- for I had that sense question when Ericka died .... what could I possibly get positively from this reality
jac . . .thank you please do
RevRandy . . .and I have found the answer is that I have received more than I could have envisioned ... not what I had "hoped" would be true,
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RevRandy . . .but much which has shaped a new understanding and sense of meaning for me.
Elissa . . .hey keep! :)
WhiteTiger . . .imo, the greatest lesson in "loss" is that other folks paths aren't about ourselves, they are about them, and they must be free to follow theirs
Keep . . .:) Iliss
Keep . . .Hi WhiteTiger and all
RevRandy . . .hey Keep
WhiteTiger . . .howdy keep
TF88 . . .that is an excellent point WT
Elissa . . .o yes, wt! that's a big learning... was for me, too
Keep . . .:) Rev Randy
Elissa . . . "And, at the moment of death, you know what happens. Nothing. It's a
Elissa . . .process, not a moment." that line is so illuminating to me...
Elissa . . .death is not an event... even though it may feel that way for us, it isn't for the one who dies
Elissa . . .i'm finding that helpful already
firespirit . . .It's the beginning of a journey..
TF88 . . .the continuation of a journey
Elissa . . .the beginning or the end or the middle
Elissa . . .who knows
Elissa . . .it's a part of the journey
firespirit . . .but lovely...
WhiteTiger . . .imo, death, like all else is a relationship... just vastly different from what came immediately before, is all
Elissa . . .a relationship with being
WhiteTiger . . .yup
jac . . .just so painful though to be the one "left behind" here on earth
Elissa . . .o yes, it's very painful
firespirit . . .Yes..it can be jac....
RevRandy . . .and the essential stuff (spirit, soul, being, whatever) remains throughout the changes of relationship venues
Keep . . .Painful, but when you understand we do go on....takes on new meaning.
RevRandy . . .pain barely touches the description for me
Elissa . . .the pain can lead us forward where we wouldn't have gone without it
Keep . . .yes
firespirit . . .yes..
RevRandy . . .unless you change, the pain will remain, even if suppressed by various means like denial, or drugs, etc
Elissa . . .life is not about happy but about balance
WhiteTiger . . .pain is just pain... and often signals great gain... childbirth is nasty in the extreme, painwise, but folks get more than the pain costs them, and imo it's the same with "loss"
firespirit . . .I thought my dad was god to some degree...when he was gone I had to look outside of my safe world..
Elissa . . .good analogy, wt
RevRandy . . .fs - and what did you find?
Keep . . .and I thank my Mom who brought me to this new understanding. Thought she was gone from me till she proved otherwise.:)
Elissa . . .:)
WhiteTiger . . .good post fs :)
firespirit . . .Many things would take me all night to explain my journey...have been writing them down..
RevRandy . . .(Moms have a way of doing that)
Keep . . .LOL yes they do
ZEE . . .?
RevRandy . . .good for you, fs
firespirit . . .Writing helps me a great deal...
Elissa . . .zee, you have a question?
ZEE . . .yes
ZEE . . .last week i was called on to be at a car accident scene
ZEE . . .where the kid was a good friend of my daughters
Elissa . . .((((((((zee)))))))))))) how awful!
Keep . . .(((((((((Z))))))))))
ZEE . . .i have my daughter and hubby drive to area, its like i knew something was wrong
ZEE . . .why do you think i was sent there?
Elissa . . .zee, i think the answer to your question will only come with what you learn from that experience
Moon . . .That is so true Elissa
WhiteTiger . . .or, rephrased, it was for a learning experience, but what sort is not clear yet
ZEE . . .yes Elissa
Elissa . . .((((((zee))))))
RevRandy . . .Well, my trusty old clock has struck ten, and that means it is time for a break (for about 10 minutes) for Elissa and me to recharge -- enjoy the time to keep on chatting, or chat with keep.
Elissa . . .bbbbbbbrrrrrreeeeeeeeaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkk
Keep . . .LOL
Keep . . .I have a question
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firespirit . . .k
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WhiteTiger . . .cool Keep.. we can invent all sorts of neat answers for ya ;)
Keep . . .I have had some wonderful communications with my Mom, directly and indirectly. The last I heard from her she said "Thank you for all your help." and it's like poof she's gone..
Keep . . .:( for me
ZEE . . .((((((keep))))))
Keep . . .ty
Keep . . .but it is a sad feeling.
Keep . . .but I know she comes for my daughter now.
Keep . . .but not me.
jac . . .oh, keep that is wonderful
jac . . .i wish my daughter would visit me like your mother does
Keep . . .guess I am still grieving but loved it when she "talked to me"
WhiteTiger . . .then perhaps it is for a purpose that she is stepping back (if she is)... may be that a next step in "letting go" is on your agenda just now
Keep . . .it has been wonderful but I feel like something has come to an end.
Keep . . .:) oh so wise WT. Thought of that. She is back to playing with the lights again.
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Keep . . .But loved it when she yelled in my ear.
Keep . . .like old times. hehe
jac . . .yes, we mothers never stop that keep...
WhiteTiger . . .mmm... maybe this is to get your heart to accept what yer head knows already... that it isn't ever "over"... if it's love, the connection is forever
Keep . . .lol, and my daughter knows I WILL ALWAYS be with her. lol
Keep . . .yes WT, but after having such wonderful Direct communication it is hard not to hear again.
Keep . . .but maybe her purpose in opening up the door is complete? I wonder.
WhiteTiger . . .that may be the point... time to learn other ways to know the connection of the spirits?
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Keep . . .wb Rev Randy
RevRandy . . .ty
WhiteTiger . . .uh oh... caffeine crisis... brb
Keep . . .But Rikkity hasn't left them. So why has my mom been so quiet after such great communication?
RevRandy . . .just scanning this discussion -- interesting points -- and the question about how the loss can be on-going, as we change our connection status
Keep . . .so. Rev Randy is she just giving me space to find a new level?
RevRandy . . .is that what it feels like for you?
Keep . . .or she likes to play with the lights most. LOL
Elissa_brb . . .those who've come to recent chats get all the points to ponder we will consider during our next chat in an email... let me know if you're not on our mailing list!
Keep . . .yes.
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TF88 . . .Keep, is it possible that your mom is leaving room for you to connect with another? or seek learning in a slightly different direction?
Keep . . .I think maybe I was getting dependent on her wonderful communications.
jac . . .rev randy, so my situation is similar to yours, daughter 19 away at college when she died...Do you think that we are "assigned" our death dates when we are born???
jac . . .car accident
RevRandy . . .I don't think so, jac ... that would seem too deterministic for me
RevRandy . . .I am so sorry about your loss, jac -- sounds like we have been along a similar path
Keep . . .but can you understand that. Elissa and Rev. R. we are connected. Did I break the connection somehow?
jac . . .yes, we have...thank you for your answer
Elissa . . .keep, are you having difficulty perceiving her as changed now... maybe you're focusing on who she was rather than who she's becoming
Sugah . . .good point E
RevRandy . . .I get a sense, keep, that you are looking at this in a very physical, linear way -- while spirit may move in other ways
WhiteTiger . . .Keep- love is the venue for these things... and that is the one immutable. If it is, it is eternal und cannot end nor be changed (imo)
Elissa . . .ty sugah
Keep . . .so she may be moving on to a higher understanding.? I would understand that.
Sanantu . . .Greetings to all*s*
Keep . . .K WT, I understand that. She's probably happy she has brought me so far and out dancing. LOL
RevRandy . . .hello sanantu
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
Sanantu . . .Hello RevRandy
Keep . . .strange to be grieving for her a second time.......
Elissa . . .i understand, keep
Keep . . .ty
firespirit . . .I did my grieving on different levels...I think that is fine..
WhiteTiger . . .Keep- and perhaps the fact that ya can grieve again is the pointer to the lesson?
Keep . . .probably
Elissa . . .it doesn't end, just moves to different levels, yes
RevRandy . . .well, let's look at another of the conversations from friday:
RevRandy . . . 2,9LD:
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Afterlife. I should know, I've had plenty... but so have you. Is it a time
RevRandy . . . 2,9of fulfillment, no. It is a time of integration. If you would become
RevRandy . . . 2,9fulfilled you'd move on. But it is a time to put into spiritual practice
RevRandy . . . 2,9what you learned in physical ways.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"So, all that money you made might mean nothing if it did not contribute to
RevRandy . . . 2,9your becoming; and one little incident of awareness might mean the whole
RevRandy . . . 2,9thing. To predict by worldly standards what will be meaningful is a hopeless
RevRandy . . . 2,9task. But religions keep trying to sell keys to heaven, when the door is
RevRandy . . . 2,9never locked. And, if you try one of those counterfeit and unnecessary keys
RevRandy . . . 2,9in an unlocked door, what happens.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Here's an experiment. I love experiments. Get a key for a door. Ok. Make
RevRandy . . . 2,9sure the door is unlocked so you don't need the key. Now put the supposedly
RevRandy . . . 2,9needed key in the lock and turn it. What happens. You lock the door which
RevRandy . . . 2,9was naturally unlocked. Aha. The very key we are given in life may lock the
RevRandy . . . 2,9secrets of afterlife, if they block the full spectrum of possibility.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"You see, the afterlife is a synonym for possibility. Here all is possible,
RevRandy . . . 2,9but not all will be true. You, in your integration of life's experiences,
RevRandy . . . 2,9will decide how much possibility you will realise. So, coming to the
RevRandy . . . 2,9afterlife with very clear notions limits your possibilities--and some
RevRandy . . . 2,9downright lock the door. I think you get the picture. No keys given by me." (10/27/2000)
Keep . . .My Mom thought when you died, you died. Dust. Think she was very surprised.
Elissa . . .lol
Keep . . .:)
RevRandy . . .I was touched by the thought in this passage
RevRandy . . .that the keys we are given in physical existence
RevRandy . . .the ones that are touted as the ones we need
RevRandy . . .may actually be the ones that block our passage into where we want or need to go
WhiteTiger . . .glack... I'm gonna have to shut up. Not much I can say about that one, and I do so love to yammer
Elissa . . . if they block the full spectrum of possibility.
RevRandy . . .exactly
Sugah . . .I do believe that!
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Sanantu . . .RevRandy...thats exactly what my Spirit Guard told me in a meditation..."The ONLY key to Heaven is your Heart".
Elissa . . .((((((giulia)))))) hi!
RevRandy . . .the afterlife is a synonym for possibility .... that’s a great phrase
RevRandy . . .Sanantu -- see, you have it!
Giulia . . .(((((((((Elissa)))))
Sanantu . . .*big smile*
RevRandy . . .Giulia - good to see you again
Giulia . . .Hello:-))
Elissa . . .hey sanantu... didn't see you come in
Giulia . . .good to see you all too
Sanantu . . .Hi Elissa...no problem*s* hi again*s*
TF88 . . .actually, we pick up a lot of keys here the lock doors during our physical life too
RevRandy . . .and if what you take from here keeps you from seeing all possibility, then .....
RevRandy . . .yes, TF, often what is supposed to open something actually closes other things
Elissa . . .true, tf
Sanantu . . .This was the key for me...that we need NO key..only our Love in our Heart...
jac . . .which life is better this life or the afterlife????
Elissa . . .wt i think LD is your favorite of our guides besides Rikkity
RevRandy . . .no key .... and certainly no key that anyone can give you, or define for you
Sanantu . . .Exactly!*s*
WhiteTiger . . .right Elissa, but in this case me and LD would go round and round ;)
RevRandy . . .jac -- I wouldn't want to choose, since they are yin-yang of my spiritual existence.
Elissa . . .jac, it's all part of the whole... how would you separate them, and if you can't separate them how can you judge which is better
Elissa . . .i'm sure he'll be there to meet you when you arrive wt lol
WhiteTiger . . .that ain't where I'm headed, with any luck at all Elissa... but that is another topic
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TF88 . . .(I'm particularly fond of TL)
Elissa . . .ah.. ok
RevRandy . . .I have a great problem with people who have their own insights, their "keys", who want to make those the keys for everyone
Elissa . . .yes, tf, i know you're pals :)
TF88 . . .:)
WhiteTiger . . .ditto that one RR!
Sanantu . . .me too RR!
Sugah . . .I agree Rev not everyone’s keys are our keys
Elissa . . .and yet everyone is always asking to be given a key... to know what it will be like before they get there (correction: not everyone :)
Sanantu . . .but it's probably just the way they can understand it at that time...but one day they also will SEE
RevRandy . . .it is one thing to share with people what you have seen along the road of life you have traveled, it is another to say it is the only road, and still another to make that only road a toll road
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Sugah . . .amen
Keep . . .:)
firespirit . . .Do not judge others...
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Elissa . . .so send your tax-deductible donations to: lol
Sugah . . .;-)
RevRandy . . .but Elissa raises a big question -- about why people seem to want that ... they seek out keys they did not have create or envision themselves
jac . . .what is sad is so many people think you are "crazy or just in horrible grief" to be even thinking about the afterlife....
Keep . . .been dealing with that
RevRandy . . .o, jac, tell us about that one --- o yes
Sanantu . . .RR...is it not a normal reaction in a certain age...human or spiritual...that you think you know and have the ONLY truth?
firespirit . . .Yes it is hard but I go with my heart on these matters..
Sanantu . . .and when you grow and see more...then you understand more?
RevRandy . . .I think it is one developmental stage to think that .... and it is nowhere near the level of fulfillment.
WhiteTiger . . .jac- those tend to be the ones who are so scared of the whole thing that avoidance is all they can manage... and imo, their opinions are worth about as much as sex manuals written by celibate priests
Elissa . . .sanantu, i think many people who are not old souls are always looking for the rules of the game... it's just a matter of not understanding the process yet
Keep . . .this new understanding has really played havoc with some relationships.
jac . . .very well said white tiger
RevRandy . . .(how about non-celibate priests ;-) )
WhiteTiger . . .lol RR
Elissa . . .hahahaha
firespirit . . .Yes, keep you will lose some people...until they can come to terms with your new found spiritually..keep.
jac . . .how can you tell if you are an old soul or not????
Keep . . .and it has taken me some time to understand that.
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RevRandy . . .and I also think that if you really lose some people over this, you were never really connected anyway
Sanantu . . .yes..that’s what I'm trying to say...but I can accept and understand them better, when I see them on their level of development.
TF88 . . .they also were never "ours" to begin with
RevRandy . . .yep TF
firespirit . . .It can hurt at first keep, but you will see it will all work out for the best, keep.
Keep . . .Yes, Rev Randy. Think I was playing out a past life responsibility I finally let go of. Still hard tho
WhiteTiger . . .lol... in my experience the old souls are the ones who could care less if they are old or not
Elissa . . .jac, one way to tell is how you manage your energy... do you need more from others than you give, or do you know how to generate your own
RevRandy . . .WT - wow, now I am agreeing with you
Keep . . .ty Fire
WhiteTiger . . .RR! where have I gone wrong! LOL
Elissa . . .lol
TF88 . . .WT...it's funny, but there is only ONE person who I have ever heard say "I think I'm a young soul"...everyone else thinks they are old. :)
Elissa . . ....and cleopatra
Browneyedgir1 . . .hello
Elissa . . .hi browneyed :) one of my favorite songs
firespirit . . .life in general can make you feel old, TF...
Keep . . .lol Fire
jac . . .yes firespirit that is true
Sanantu . . .oh yes firespirit!
RevRandy . . .but feeling old and being old are two different things
Browneyedgir1 . . .I've wondered about my soul being old or not...every one always says that I seem so much older than i really am...it's always been that way...could that have to do with the age of my soul?
tmayder . . .Elissa, how do you suggest generating our own energy?
Elissa . . .hi tm :)
RevRandy . . .and I suspect that old souls feel a sense of youth in their understanding
tmayder . . .hello :)
jac . . .i have spent more time in the last 6 months just trying to figure out "what is life all about"""???
Elissa . . .tm, find out what energizes you... what makes you feel energized without having to get it from another person
Keep . . .new personality, feeling new?
WhiteTiger . . ."old spirit" probably applies to almost all who are here, in one sense. Time beyond the veil runs radically different than here, and if ya count duration "over there", old is the best description
tmayder . . .ah, I see what you mean :) thank you, E :)
jac . . .i hope i remember not to come back here......
Elissa . . .it might be music, or dance, or science or hopscotch... anything that you feel more whole after you've experienced it
Elissa . . .yw tm :)
Sanantu . . .RR....since I'm in the grieving process from my daughters passing...I learned more and started to SEE more then all the years before...but I also have less and less need for the outside world....not sure if that is good.
WhiteTiger . . .lol jac
Moon . . .lol jac
RevRandy . . .Sanantu, I suspect you are getting more selective about the outside world,
jac . . .i feel that way also sanantu..
RevRandy . . .not willing to invest energy in places and people who seem to be users more than creators
Elissa . . .that's part of learning to generate your own energy! and that can be a good thing as long as you don't withdraw
Keep . . .:) Rev Randy
RevRandy . . .you have learned to focus down to the essentials
Sanantu . . .yes...It's like I speak a totally other language....and I'm so tired to translate it over and over and to feel that most are still not understand what I'm saying..or feeling.
Elissa . . .i had to do that, too... it felt very strange indeed
WhiteTiger . . .jac, that brings up something that mystifies me about the whole grief thing... almost everyone want to be shut of this place... yet we celebrate every time a new one gets a sentence to life, and have a tizzy when someone gets released... why?
Elissa . . .lol wt
Sugah . . .wow wt
Elissa . . .that's occurred to me, too
Moon . . .Because we think we lost connection with them wt
RevRandy . . .well, WT - in your own unique style you raise a good question
Keep . . .its more stressful to be born here than to leave? :)
Elissa . . .excellent questions
jac . . .that is a good questions wt
WhiteTiger . . .RR- insanity has it's uses ;)
Sanantu . . .yes RR...thats how I feel...it's not important to me anymore...the only Home I feel is Spirit!
RevRandy . . .I am just crazy about your insanity
* Elissa covers her mouth just in time
WhiteTiger . . .lol
jac . . .personally I am just lonesome and mad that my daughter was killed....i want her back or I want to go where she is
RevRandy . . .jac -- yep, know that feeling too
Elissa . . .i felt that way too, jac
fang . . .must be a feeling we all feel after losing a loved one
RevRandy . . .but then I realized that my journey was where I was, not somewhere else
RevRandy . . .Let's look at the last conversation we had on Friday:
firespirit . . .Yes..I have felt it too..
Sanantu . . .jac...I don't want her back...because I KNOW she is much more happy there...but I wanna learn my lessons here..ALL...so I'm free to go there too!
tmayder . . .I just know that I feel completely drained
RevRandy . . . 2,9SD:
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"Hi. Where to start. When I died, they grieved for me sometimes and did not
RevRandy . . . 2,9other times. When I died, I found out much and little different times. When
RevRandy . . . 2,9I died, death was welcomed and despised and feared depending on which life.
RevRandy . . . 2,9I have been many, like most of you. Grief stops people from living. Death
RevRandy . . . 2,9stops people from living. Afterlife is always possible. So, what is the
RevRandy . . . 2,9natural state of life. It must be afterlife. So I guess we are living and
RevRandy . . . 2,9you guys are the ones in the afterlife.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"But it is all happening at once, so any entity is simultaneously dead and
RevRandy . . . 2,9alive--being born and dying. We each are closed systems of becoming. And
RevRandy . . . 2,9here's the thought I was coming to: The process of becoming can and does
RevRandy . . . 2,9include both birth and death. When people think of death as a state of
RevRandy . . . 2,9unbecoming and unbeing, they miss the point.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"I love trees, I love tree trunks, so let's think about trees. A tree begins
RevRandy . . . 2,9as a seed. It must stop being a seed to be a sprout. And the sprout-ness
RevRandy . . . 2,9must give way to tree-ness. And then--each cycle--the tree is born again,
RevRandy . . . 2,9blooms, and then dies to some extent; and lies in death to come back another
RevRandy . . . 2,9season. And in all the phases it is becoming itself as it blooms and dies.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 2,9The smaller- seeming motions of coming and going have to be seen in the
RevRandy . . . 2,9larger whole. And maybe the whole is about the tree becoming a large old
RevRandy . . . 2,9tree, or maybe it is about becoming a log on a fire, or maybe about becoming
RevRandy . . . 2,9a raft, or maybe about dropping seeds, or maybe about becoming the post that
RevRandy . . . 2,9holds the temple bell. Maybe each cycle of life is about nothing, but the
RevRandy . . . 2,9whole is everything. I think the whole is everything. We are becoming
RevRandy . . . 2,9everything, even though we experience what appears to be nothing in death.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"If there were truly nothingness in death, then there would also be
RevRandy . . . 2,9nothingness in birth; because who can differentiate the two. But if one
RevRandy . . . 2,9admits to even some portion of meaning and value in either life or death,
RevRandy . . . 2,9then it exists in both.
RevRandy . . . 2,9
RevRandy . . . 2,9"I think I have challenged you enough. I know I have challenged myself for a
RevRandy . . . 2,9number of lives, so this time in death my spirit rests and integrates and is
RevRandy . . . 2,9whole. Want to meet my spirit now. Arrrrrrrf... rrrrf... f [it's Rikkity's
RevRandy . . . 2,9dog, Sandy!]." (10/27/2000)
firespirit . . .interesting...
fang . . .yea
Elissa . . .hahaha i knew you're love that one, fang
Keep . . .:)
WhiteTiger . . .lmao... interesting sync, given that I didn't have time to read the PtoPs before coming here tonight
Elissa . . .yes, i thought you had wt :)
Keep . . .me either
Elissa . . .and his spirit was so beautiful... i saw a brilliant light and thought this must be a very evolved spirit
RevRandy . . .we were gotten by SD too .... didn't see that one coming, although Sandy, as a dog spirit, comes to us regularly
fang . . .if you ever see chumley
fang . . . don't be alarmed ;) lol
RevRandy . . .I am so struck by this image that if one side, either life or death (after-life) has meaning, then both sides of the equation must contain meaning
Elissa . . .“ if one
Elissa . . .admits to even some portion of meaning and value in either life or death,
Elissa . . .then it exists in both.”
RevRandy . . .which responds to the question before about which side to choose -- but both are contained in each other
Elissa . . .the tree dies a little each year, but lives... not only lives, but grows... paradox?
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Elissa . . .isn't that what we do in grief?
WhiteTiger . . .ooooo... another topic suggestion for another time: is it all one, or is the human aftelife a subdivision?
Elissa . . .ok, wt :)
Elissa . . .part of us dies, but we continue to live... and hopefully (or through hope) grow
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmm
jac . . .yes we do die a little everyday, everyday we are a day closer to death
WhiteTiger . . .is what dies actually part of us, or is it just something we picked up to carry around for identification?
RevRandy . . .and each fall, when the leaves drop from many trees, we cannot know which ones have died, to move onto some other form of existence, and which ones are awaiting their life recycle
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Moon . . .Now i realize the tradition of growing Bonzi!!
Elissa . . .not actually part of us, ok (sheesh! you're tough) lol... but part of what we think of as our identity...
Elissa . . .our presumed world
firespirit . . .I like to think I am growing and not dying.....that is a neg. way to think...bummer..
Keep . . .hmmmmmmmm pondering that one.
jackal . . .hi
RevRandy . . .but jac, each day, we also are born a little bit --
WhiteTiger . . .lol moon!
RevRandy . . .hi jackal
Elissa . . .hey jackal :)
jackal . . .hey rev
RevRandy . . .or maybe more than a little bit
jackal . . .hi elissa
firespirit . . .I hope I am born in a new light...
Keep . . .die? or you mean transformed or lighten our vibration............etc.
Keep . . .think I missed something.
Elissa . . .if birth comes through death, then what does it matter... it's all part of the same process
Elissa . . .(or something like that lol)
firespirit . . .doesn't matter..
RevRandy . . .yes, when I think about what lies ahead at this point in my life, many of the things that I used to think would lie ahead can be no more -- they are gone -- but many, many other things spring up from experience and wisdom, to take their places
Keep . . .yes, but I guess I was stuck in the rebirthing here when I read it.
WhiteTiger . . .lol... a succession of toll roads, with the same rest area in between? ;)
Keep . . .lol WT
Sanantu . . .I don't like the word death...because it is connected to very wrong picture...death-end-finish...but transformation is so open...full of hope. ..only my view!*s*
Sugah . . .lol
Keep . . .foreign currency. stuck behind the bar
RevRandy . . .but what I worry about are the rest areas which then have that sign "No sanitary facilities"
Keep . . .think that is where I was thinking Sanantu
Elissa . . .yes, sanantu... that's what that PtoP is all about
WhiteTiger . . .death is what the body does... like scrapping a car... the driver is like the energizer bunny... just keeps going
ZEE . . .((((((San)))))))
jac . . .good wt
Sanantu . . .I could feel that Keep*s*
Keep . . .:)
Sanantu . . .thanks ((((((((((((ZEE))))))))0*s*
Sanantu . . .needed that!*s*
Elissa . . .death is a word we use all the time... and we are learning here to see its meaning differently
RevRandy . . .one of the things that Rikkity helped us deal with is the word death ... or her being dead ... but in this worldly context, separate from that liberating understanding, it does denote finality
WhiteTiger . . .lol RR... there's always landscaping in them places... bushes work fine ;)
RevRandy . . .WT -- need to discuss gender and the afterlife
Keep . . .I don't think Death as in death as before. Just a changing.......
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
Elissa . . .lol now boys am i going to have to separate you?
RevRandy . . .he started it
Elissa . . .o sure
Sugah . . .:-)
Sanantu . . .Elissa..I know...but when people ask me when my daughter died...then I tell them what I KNOW...she did NOT...she passed on!
firespirit . . .ROFL!
WhiteTiger . . .did not! *scuffs toe*
RevRandy . . .sanantu -- that is good -- help them to open their minds and spirits
firespirit . . .not you sana the boys fighting...
RevRandy . . .(did too) pout
Elissa . . .ok, sanantu... i understand not wanting to use "die"... i went through that myself for awhile
WhiteTiger . . .:PPPP yer mother wears army boots
Keep . . .lol
fang . . .mine did
* Elissa grabs revrandy by the scruff of the neck and raps wt's knuckles with a ruler
RevRandy . . .As a four star general, she should!!!!!!! But how can your mother call herself a private?
WhiteTiger . . .lol fang :) knew someone would come up with that. just didn't know who ;)
RevRandy . . .oppppps I 'll be good
fang . . .hey now my mom was just a private
RevRandy . . .but we digress
RevRandy . . .I think
fang . . .hey she was in the army
Elissa . . .things are degenerating here, folks
fang . . . and dad was in the navy
RevRandy . . .and time is fleeting
Elissa . . .rofl!
WhiteTiger . . .{-- #1 degenerate
RevRandy . . .I agree
Elissa . . .so, any last minute brilliant thoughts or insights?
Elissa . . .or insults lol
WhiteTiger . . .lol
fang . . .hhhhhhhuuuuuuummmmmmm
ZEE . . .i am
fang . . .i can't think of any
Keep . . .thank you. I have to go. You have all helped immensely
Sanantu . . .Elissa...it's just that it hurts much more when I use the word Death...then I see my 19 year old daughter in the Hospital bed...not responding anymore to me!! But when I use the word transformation...then she is alive..and I can see her smile.*s*
jac . . .do those in the "afterlife" pay alot of attention to what we are doing here?
Elissa . . .yw, keep... i'm glad you came!
RevRandy . . .you can't choose your grief, but you can choose your response to grief, and that effects both life and your connection to afterlife
jac . . .Oh, Sanantu, I understand that
Sanantu . . .I know you can jac!!! (((((((((((((LOVE))))))))))))
RevRandy . . .Sanantu -- I see that ... and feel the power of that for you .... you make a choice that has an effect for you
Elissa . . .i understand, sanantu... been there done that... you may find over time that it becomes only a word like any other... or not :)
Sanantu . . .I hope so!...it's still a neg power word...very painful!
RevRandy . . .well, it is now 11, and time to thank you all for coming in and making this one super discussion
Elissa . . .yes, jac, they are here with us
RevRandy . . .awesome
WhiteTiger . . .good crowd :)
Elissa . . .yes! thank you all! this has been wonderful
Sugah . . .this was great! ty all so much
firespirit . . .Ok...goodnight Randy and Elissa!
* Moon : Blessings to you, nobody in particular
jac . . .thank you...goodnight
RevRandy . . .we'll be back again next Sunday ... with more to ponder
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa . . . 9,1!Elissa rainbow.mid 1,9 :o)
RevRandy . . .WT - say hi to hyper
firespirit . . .great see you then!
fang . . .ok cu then
WhiteTiger . . .wilco, RR :)
RevRandy . . .night to all ....
Elissa . . .see you next sunday night and have a great week!
fang . . .it's roger wilco
Sanantu . . .Thanks so much RR...Blessings and Love to you!
RevRandy . . .ty
RevRandy . . .and to you too
fang . . .love ya'll
WhiteTiger . . .have a good week, you two ;)
RevRandy . . .thanks
Session Close: Sun Oct 29 23:04:57 2000

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Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker,M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 1999-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.