10/22/2000 - SPIRIT COMMUNICATION

Session Start: Sun Oct 22 20:37:37 2000 *** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Spirit Communication" 2,9Sunday 2,11October 22 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy . . .hello everyone!
rustie . . .hello
firespirit . . .Hi Elissa!
Elissa . . .hey firespirit!
Elissa . . .welcome rustie and cj :)
rustie . . .thank you
Elissa . . .we'll be starting in a few minutes
Elissa . . .give people a chance to get here if they ran into traffic lol
firespirit . . .LOL!
CJ . . .thank you and I'm back
RevRandy . . .we'll give you a complete intro in just a few minutes
RevRandy . . .so, just relax, chat, enjoy the refreshments, the bathrooms are down the hall (aren't they always?)
rustie . . .lol
firespirit . . .LOL!
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RevRandy . . .hello deni
firespirit . . .HI Deni!
Elissa . . .((((((deni-face))))))
Deni . . .hi everyone :)
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RevRandy . . .hey TF
firespirit . . .Hi TF88!
TF88 . . .hi folks :)
Elissa . . .((((((TF))))))
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RevRandy . . .keiko!!!!
Deni . . .hi kx
Elissa . . .keiko!!! hi sweetie!
firespirit . . .Hi kxkoda!
kxkoda . . .hi, I had a little bit trouble to attend. Here I am!
Elissa . . .i'm glad you made it!
kxkoda . . .thank you. Hi, all.
RevRandy . . .Welcome all to Spiritual Persistence
Elissa . . .welcome!
RevRandy . . .it is good to see you all, new and old alike
RevRandy . . .Before we begin the formal part of the evening, I think it would be a good idea to let you know more about us and about this chat
RevRandy . . .so, Elissa, if you will, please.....
Elissa . . .sure
RevRandy . . .ty
Elissa . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . .I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
Elissa . . .a Master's degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
Elissa . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa . . .She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for the
Elissa . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . .Ponder.
Elissa . . .It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives.
Elissa . . .We are here to
Elissa . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . .or email Randy (RevRandy@spiritualpersistence.com)
Elissa . . .or me (ebb@spiritualpersistence.com) any time.
Elissa . . .And please let us know if you would like to be on our email list
Elissa . . .for chat notices and Points to Ponder.
Elissa . . .Thanks for coming... and again, welcome!
Elissa . . .Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
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RevRandy . . .Well, it seems like we have no questions to begin with, so let's proceed
kxkoda . . .hi, nyc.
nyc- . . .hi
RevRandy . . .we begin our sessions with a simple invocation
RevRandy . . .please join in the spirit of these words:
RevRandy . . . 0,2May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . . 0,2Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . . 0,2And guided in all ways gracious.
RevRandy . . .Amen
CJ . . .Amen
Elissa . . .amen~
kxkoda . . .Amen
Deni . . .Amen
rustie . . .amen
firespirit . . .amen!
nyc- . . .amen
TF88 . . .peace
RevRandy . . .Our topic tonight is spirit communication .... and for those who are new, a few simple comments about our process
RevRandy . . .when you see something posted by us in another color, like the invocation above, those words come from Rikkity
RevRandy . . .we will be opening with some questions to ponder, and then move into some of those Points to Ponder that were mentioned --
RevRandy . . .usually we present the material, add our own comments, and then the floor is open for your thoughts, questions, ideas, whatever
RevRandy . . .and we trust that the conversation will go where it needs to go
RevRandy . . .This past week, in a conversation with Rikkity, she posed some of what she called "leading questions"
RevRandy . . .here is one of them:
RevRandy . . . 0,2Why would you want to be in touch with a dead person.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Is your answer forward or backward looking.
RevRandy . . .and here is another
RevRandy . . . 0,2Do you believe that impediments to spirit communication is only on the physical side. Why or why not.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Cite personal experience.
RevRandy . . .So, to start, anyone want to respond to these questions?
RevRandy . . .hmmmm
RevRandy . . .big ones, yes?
rustie . . .no, spirit is on both sides
nyc- . . .i believe that what are being called impediments are challenges which are definitely unique to the physical side -- and that's what makes them important for us to go through. That is, they are a part of the physical existence which we have to deal with
RevRandy . . .two responses - are they mutually exclusive, or can both be true?
rustie . . .both
Elissa . . .nyc, i think that's what most people think... and indeed there are challenges for us... but communication is always a 2-way street, is it not?
rustie . . .elissa, it is true
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Elissa . . .ty rustie
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nyc- . . .what does the idea of it being a two way street have to do with the fact that challenges are there for us to endure
Elissa . . .((((((noni))))))
Deni . . .hi Noni & Star
RevRandy . . .But when I think about my own journey into spirit communication, I can only really assess the impediments that I can identify
RevRandy . . .and those are the ones that I place there .... or at least that is what I can identify with certainty
rustie . . .I have spirit come to me and I don't even know who they are.
Noni . . .hi hi
Starseeker-tink . . .hi sorry to interrupt
Elissa . . .nyc, because if it's a 2-way street then there are challenges for spirit as well
Elissa . . .welcome starseeker
nyc- . . .elissa: oh okay
Elissa . . .ok :)
RevRandy . . .ok?
RevRandy . . .ok!
Elissa . . .lol
Starseeker-tink . . .TY
RevRandy . . .In fact, while I have a long history of spiritual contacts, I also had a long history of acting as if that were not true
RevRandy . . .I put up barriers of thought and style
RevRandy . . .which I rationalised as "truth" because of its scientific origins
RevRandy . . .so the impediments I found were actually set there by me
RevRandy . . .I constructed what I thought was a safe world view which excluded those dimensions, and then when the safety of that world view was shattered by ericka's death, the very impediment to my communication was both threatened and removed
RevRandy . . .In my case, it was the loss of what I thought was safe that allowed me to be more daring, and more open
RevRandy . . .Let me share a Point to Ponder with you, and see where that takes us
RevRandy . . . 0,12"A lot of people want to believe and experience contact with us here, but
RevRandy . . . 0,12only a few really believe and have experienced. You can read all you want
RevRandy . . . 0,12about France, but until you go there it's not real. And some people get
RevRandy . . . 0,12there and stay in the tourist areas, because they can't deal with the
RevRandy . . . 0,12reality of their dreams. It's like just saying 'yes' or 'no,' but nothing
RevRandy . . . 0,12else when you get a chance to talk with us. You get a chance to travel and
RevRandy . . . 0,12then only look for the familiar. (10/30/95 - I#4)
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Elissa . . .hey journey :)
Deni . . .hi journey
journey . . .Hi there Elissa and Rev and All :)
RevRandy . . .I chose this one
RevRandy . . .because it came early on in our communications, and it spoke to me in many ways
RevRandy . . .(hi journey)
RevRandy . . .especially that last line
RevRandy . . .You get a chance to travel and then only look for the familiar.
RevRandy . . .And I think about the many times I have felt the invitation to the spiritual
RevRandy . . .but wanted to only accept in on terms that were familiar
RevRandy . . .I wanted it to be just like it always was
RevRandy . . .I wanted the spiritual realm to be some kind of mirror of the physical realm
RevRandy . . .So, I would venture forth thoughts
RevRandy . . .that would pose connection, but on my own terms
RevRandy . . .I tried to make the conversations my own way
RevRandy . . .Have any of you experienced that?
nyc- . . .revrandy: in what ways have you reconciled the differences between how you want the spiritual realm to be and how it actually is
firespirit . . .Yes....I have..
kxkoda . . .share your experience firespirit.
RevRandy . . .Well, nyc, I have not reconciled the differences .... I have tried to begin to live past the differences
nyc- . . .ok
RevRandy . . .and firespirit, please
nyc- . . .it also makes me wonder how the spiritual realm actually is different....
rustie . . .it is very different
Elissa . . .i've learned to let go of my own expectations of spirit and let it take me where it will
RevRandy . . .I sense it is different beyond words and as familiar as our essence of being
Elissa . . .firespirit, you were going to say something about your own experience?
RevRandy . . .we keep being told that what we receive is a translation of the spiritual reality, for systems like words, etc, are not the means there
firespirit . . .I learned to except my dreams as real..because they are and were so real..
kxkoda . . .sounds good. we feel no language barrier.
Elissa . . .yes, i've had many of those real dreams :)
rustie . . .so have I
firespirit . . .They are lovely dreams...of places..at least mine are...
RevRandy . . .some real enough to make one question what is "reality"
rustie . . .amen
Elissa . . .here's a ptop i chose that relates to communication without language... i think it fits here
firespirit . . .Yes, many talks with my relatives who have passed over..
Elissa . . .(sorry, fs, let me know when you're done)
firespirit . . .crossed over I mean..
firespirit . . .I am finished..
Elissa . . .ok... thank you
Elissa . . . 0,12"Here's a thought many have had:
Elissa . . . 0,12What if the greatest spirit communication
Elissa . . . 0,12took place with a deaf mute in an isolated place and he told no one.
Elissa . . . 0,12Hmmm...
Elissa . . . 0,12but if he--or she, that is--learned from it and remembered,
Elissa . . . 0,12it would not be lost. Not all communication is in language.
Elissa . . . 0,12Much of the most important we carry in spirit.
Elissa . . . 0,12Ponder that." (6/11/2000)
Elissa . . .communication is not necessarily language or words...
Elissa . . .and in order
Elissa . . .for us to feel we have been communicating, we don't need to be able
Elissa . . .to verbalize it...
Elissa . . .think of the communication you've had with nature...
Elissa . . .no words, no need for words...
Elissa . . .and yet the learning is no less real.
Elissa . . .here's another thought: maybe your loved one IS communicating with you...
Elissa . . .maybe s/he is doing so by inspiring you to turn your head and notice
Elissa . . .a book in a crowded bookstore,
rustie . . .I saw my aunt today at church and she passed over 3 years ago
firespirit . . .ever had the feeling someone was touching your hair? And no one was there?
Elissa . . .or urging you to talk to someone who just
Elissa . . .happens to be needing a kind word at that very moment, or in dreams...
Elissa . . .and maybe you do not need to speak in language in order for you to
Elissa . . .communicate with your loved one...
Elissa . . .maybe the way you live your life--
Elissa . . .with more hope or more understanding or more creativity--IS communicating
Elissa . . .to spirit that you are learning and remembering what they have taught
Elissa . . .and are teaching you...
Elissa . . .and that you love them and honor your relationship...
Elissa . . .maybe when you do something they would have done or touch someone they
Elissa . . .love or move forward with your life,
Elissa . . .that is all the communication
Elissa . . .they need to hear...
Elissa . . .but how often we discount, ignore, or devalue those things,
Elissa . . .and write them off as "just coincidences" or "just a feeling i had."
Elissa . . .so...
Elissa . . .i've talked a lot longer than that ptop lol... what do you think?
Noni . . .i have a question about that ptop
kxkoda . . .I was very touched.
Elissa . . .sure noni
Elissa . . .ty keiko
Deni . . .very well said E
Deni . . .:)
Noni . . .much of the most important "what" is carried in spirit?
Elissa . . .ty deni-face :)
RevRandy . . .awesome, Miss E
Elissa . . .ty rr
Elissa . . .important communication, noni
Noni . . .i see, ok ty
RevRandy . . .it may not rise to the level of language ... but it is still communicated
rustie . . .I have a question
TF88 . . .or stoop to the level of language ;)
Elissa . . .yes rustie
RevRandy . . .;-)
Elissa . . .lol right tf
rustie . . .when you communicate, that means if you see, that is also communicating with them?
Elissa . . .very definitely, rustie!
firespirit . . .Can I tell a story here?
rustie . . .I saw my aunt today
RevRandy . . .a connection was made!
Elissa . . .sure, fs
rustie . . .she has been gone for 3 years
firespirit . . .lovely rustie..
Elissa . . .that's awesome, rustie... you must have been so glad to see her
firespirit . . .let me know when to start my story..
RevRandy . . .how did it feel?
rustie . . .very warm and loving
firespirit . . .wonderful rustie!
RevRandy . . .what a gift
rustie . . .I will stop so firespirit can talk
Elissa . . .thank you and maybe you'll tell us more about your experience later, rustie?
rustie . . .I will talk later on some other things that happen to me
Elissa . . .go ahead, fs
Elissa . . .cool :)
firespirit . . .thanks
firespirit . . .after my dad's death..the tv channels would change by themselves..
firespirit . . .when I asked dad if he did not like the programing..I had dream..
firespirit . . .the dream was very real..I went out to the living room..I was asleep but felt awake..
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kxkoda . . .hi Amy.
Amy . . .hi koda
firespirit . . .my dad was sitting in the recliner with the remote...and he said.."I am sorry did you want this..I didn't mean to hog it". So I received my answer..
Elissa . . .o what a great dream, fs!!!
firespirit . . .Was a nice one...
Noni . . .cool firespirit :)
Elissa . . .that must have been great confirmation for you
rustie . . .nice
firespirit . . .it was lovely...
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firespirit . . .thanks for listening...
kxkoda . . .thanks for sharing.
kxkoda . . .great
RevRandy . . .does this mean that men want the remote even on the other side?
Deni . . .lol
Elissa . . .hahahahaha some things never change
firespirit . . .your welcome
rustie . . .I have another question
firespirit . . .LOL!! It think soo..hehe..
Elissa . . .yes rustie
firespirit . . .My dad loved his recliner and the remote..so it's fitting..
Elissa . . .yes, we so often overlook the obvious ways spirit communicates
rustie . . .I saw my father-in-law pass 3 months before he passed
rustie . . .what does that mean
RevRandy . . .it means what it means to you, rustie -- what did it say to you
Elissa . . .rustie, were you afraid he was going to die? or anticipating it?
rustie . . .he was in the ER when I saw he, we did not know he was going to pass
rustie . . .but something or someone was telling me he was
Elissa . . .well, if you believe, as i do, that time is not linear,
Elissa . . .then it's possible for us to see things "before" they happen
rustie . . .just like someone is telling me that I must get ready, because
rustie . . .my mother is close to crossing over
Elissa . . .someone is telling you that now?
rustie . . .yes, I smell death when I am with her
rustie . . .she is very sick
Elissa . . .is she ill, rustie?
Elissa . . .ah
rustie . . .I don't know how to handle it
Elissa . . .then you're anticipating her death... it's called anticipatory mourning...
Elissa . . .you're trying to come to terms with it and prepare yourself
firespirit . . .I did that before my grandfather passed...
rustie . . .I am afraid
Elissa . . .you need to go with whatever you're feeling and don't feel guilty about it...
Elissa . . .your anticipating her death will not make it happen
rustie . . .but I smell death, what does that mean?
RevRandy . . .knowing something does not cause something
Deni . . .it means death stinks :)
rustie . . .lol,
Elissa . . .lol deni... yep!
RevRandy . . .and the balances of life and death are shifting
journey . . .i understand the "smell" and I experienced it only once but it can be far ahead of the actual passing
firespirit . . .Yes..with my Dad, five years before it happened..
RevRandy . . .and some come back from that state
rustie . . .I have alot questions, but I won't take up everyone's time
journey . . .to me it felt like a time to come to terms with my role in the family prior to the event taking place
Elissa . . .wow, 5 years!
firespirit . . .Yes..I had a dream of his death..
RevRandy . . .yes, predictions and prophesies are not determinisms
Elissa . . .rustie, that's what we're here for... but right now we need to give you the most recent ptop on this before we break
RevRandy . . .We were given a Point to Ponder this week
RevRandy . . .and maybe it will be helpful to you all
RevRandy . . .so, let me share it, and say a couple of things, and then we will let you think about it over the break
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Ok, how do peeps get to talk to us. Ok.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You've heard of open and shut cases. Well, this is a shut and open deal.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Step 1: Peep dies, bye-bye, on other side (or disassembled, but forget that).
RevRandy . . . 0,2Now dead is doing just fine--once D&C are gone. But others not so good--lots of baggage.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Dead forgot to take the bags.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, step 2: Shut off the past when it is prescriptive--when it contains expectations which are physical and worldly.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You have to close the outer door of the airlock or else the space aliens get in... wait, no...
RevRandy . . . 0,2you have to close the inner doors of yourself to be able to open the outer doors of spirit.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But most people approach the possibility of contact with the inner doors wide open,
RevRandy . . . 0,2and so all the heat leaks out and the gas bill goes through the ceiling.
RevRandy . . . 0,2What, were you born in a barn. But follow me on this, if you can.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
Elissa . . .we're trying lol
Deni . . .what is "D&C"?
RevRandy . . . 0,2"How do you get to the future. Not by facing the past.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Where are spirits who pass over.
RevRandy . . . 0,2In the so-called future, even though time doesn't exist.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But, if you leave your past open how you going to get the future.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, while you can't shut it completely, you can sort of close it. Then you can open yourself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
firespirit . . .and what is peeps?
Elissa . . .dazed and confused :)
Deni . . .ohhhhhhhhhh
Elissa . . .peeps = people
firespirit . . .thanks
Deni . . .~~~~~~~~~~~{ D&C
Elissa . . .dazed and confused is what spirits are when they first make the transition... sort of like waking up and finding yourself in a foreign country
Elissa . . .lol deni
RevRandy . . .(or awake on many days in our own country for some of us)
Deni . . .thanks :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2"You two took the big leap early.
RevRandy . . . 0,2 8 days, wow.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Most folks are too absorbed in the past at that time; or too scared of the future with its awesome loss and change.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And some folks in the first stages of loss are so out of it they shut off, and are therefore radically open.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But a day later they go back and close off the future.
RevRandy . . . 0,2These are the ones who say, 'I knew she was dead. She came to me. But then I couldn't get in touch with her later.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2So shut it, and open yourself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"So that's it.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But I have a few leading questions:
RevRandy . . . 0,2Why would you want to be in touch with a dead person.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Is your answer forward or backward looking.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Do you believe that impediments to spirit communication is only on the physical side. Why or why not.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Cite personal experience.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Have you ever experienced a radical breakthrough in spirit communication. If so, what changed before and after.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If you wish to communicate but can't or don't, what do you see as impediments
RevRandy . . . 0,2And the clincher: Why do you assume that a failure to communicate is about you.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Shut and open is only about one side of the equation. And also no one size fits all.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
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RevRandy . . . 0,2"Ok. One last image: Stupid U.S. tourist in Paris wants to get a table and a glass of wine.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If she speaks louder or slower or in Portuguese she still won't communicate.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Sometimes you just have to shut the fuck up and listen and trust the kindness of strange spirits.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Maybe you weren't meant to talk, just to listen.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And maybe the spirit wasn't meant to talk, just to listen.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Communication does not imply conversation. That's enough." (10/21/2000)
Elissa . . .hi garthmom :)
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RevRandy . . .So, there it is --- I invite you to ponder all of that as we take a ten minute break ....
Elissa . . .hi jess :)
RevRandy . . .and I will repost it all when we return.
Elissa . . .bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkk
RevRandy . . .the floor is open .... we'll be back
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journey . . .this ptop is great
journey . . .hi noni :)
garthmom . . .Has anyone ever had any contact with a Medium?
Noni . . .hihi
rustie . . .yes
*** RevRandybrb is now known as RevRandy
RevRandy . . .have I had contact with one???? I live with one
garthmom . . .tell me all about it!!!!!!!
RevRandy . . .sure
RevRandy . . .it is an awesome experience, but also a burden at times
RevRandy . . .she senses so much, but sometimes it is hard to have that much going on
RevRandy . . .and together we have these awesome conversations with spirit -- not just Rikkity
garthmom . . .John says on his show that you don't always hear from the ones that you are trying to connect with
RevRandy . . .o yes, garthmom -- just because we want it doesn't make it so .... ever call a number and get someone else on the other end ... same way
rustie . . .besides Rikkity is there someone else with you tonight?
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EvilPoptart . . .hi
Deni . . .hi
rustie . . .I mean a spirit?
rustie . . .Hello
RevRandy . . .we are surrounded by so many .... but what we are sharing from Rikkity came to us in the past ..
EvilPoptart . . .I have a question..
journey . . .evilpoptart, now that is some name, welcome
journey . . .hahahha
RevRandy . . .EvilPopTart ..... I don't even want to ask
Deni . . .that reminds me...I'm heading to the pantry...lol
Deni . . .;0
Noni . . .lol
rustie . . .RevRandy, I mean tonight?
EvilPoptart . . .LOL thanks
EvilPoptart . . .I like Poptarts..
garthmom . . .does it matter how long they have been gone--I really need to hear something from my Dad, just to know that he is at peace
RevRandy . . .tonight we are here mainly with you guys -- but I often have the sense of her being around us
Elissa_brb . . .garthmom, maybe it's you who needs to find peace
EvilPoptart . . .Anybody here an expert on dreams?
RevRandy . . .I dreamt I was one ...
garthmom . . .I can't, I never had a chance to say goodbye
RevRandy . . .but have you said goodbyes in your own self?
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Jess . . .i do think that sometimes even the simplest of things can easily be an adc... and so can dreams
garthmom . . .no, just I know that we will be together someday again
rustie . . .spirit is very loving and understanding
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Elissa . . .garthmom, then find a way to say it now... he hears you... some sort of ritual, or letter to him, might help you
RevRandy . . .well, this seems to be a question that connects to the point we shared
Noni . . .garthmom - you can still talk to him - he will hear you
RevRandy . . . 0,2And maybe the spirit wasn't meant to talk, just to listen.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Communication does not imply conversation. That's enough." (10/21/2000)
Elissa . . .((((((fang)))))) since this is your topic, i'm glad you're here!
fang . . .if i get knocked off, we're having storms, and tornados here
garthmom . . .But I need to hear from Him
RevRandy . . .that is the end of it .... but I will repeat it all over again
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Deni . . .Communication does not imply conversation...thats a CLASSIC!!!
RevRandy . . .hey WT
Jess . . .i found that even writing a letter to my mother helped ease my heart and soul quite a bit -i had a lot to say b4 i could move on after my mothers death 2 years ago
WhiteTiger . . .RR :)
Elissa . . .((((((wt)))))) glad you made it!
WhiteTiger . . .Elissa :)
Elissa . . .good thing to remember, eh deni
journey . . .deni, i agree
Deni . . .for sure E :)
journey . . .sometimes we simply receive what we should or need
RevRandy . . .often the act of putting our feelings into words for ourselves helps to focus the energy of their expression beyond us
Elissa . . .yes jess, those things are very helpful
garthmom . . .I know that it is not always a conversation per say, but just a sign
fang . . .i want to hear,, see,, feel or know ,,,that they are there
RevRandy . . .but maybe you have been shown many signs, just not the ones you have been looking for
RevRandy . . .well, from the top, here is that Point to Ponder one more time:
Elissa . . .right... a sign, a person, a thought, a dream
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Ok, how do peeps get to talk to us. Ok.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You've heard of open and shut cases. Well, this is a shut and open deal.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Step 1: Peep dies, bye-bye, on other side (or disassembled, but forget that).
RevRandy . . . 0,2Now dead is doing just fine--once D&C are gone. But others not so good--lots of baggage.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Dead forgot to take the bags.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, step 2: Shut off the past when it is prescriptive--when it contains expectations which are physical and worldly.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You have to close the outer door of the airlock or else the space aliens get in... wait, no...
RevRandy . . . 0,2you have to close the inner doors of yourself to be able to open the outer doors of spirit.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But most people approach the possibility of contact with the inner doors wide open,
RevRandy . . . 0,2and so all the heat leaks out and the gas bill goes through the ceiling.
RevRandy . . . 0,2What, were you born in a barn. But follow me on this, if you can.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"How do you get to the future. Not by facing the past.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Where are spirits who pass over.
RevRandy . . . 0,2In the so-called future, even though time doesn't exist.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But, if you leave your past open how you going to get the future.
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Elissa . . .noodle!!! hi :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, while you can't shut it completely, you can sort of close it. Then you can open yourself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"You two took the big leap early.
RevRandy . . . 0,2 8 days, wow.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Most folks are too absorbed in the past at that time; or too scared of the future with its awesome loss and change.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And some folks in the first stages of loss are so out of it they shut off, and are therefore radically open.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But a day later they go back and close off the future.
RevRandy . . . 0,2These are the ones who say, 'I knew she was dead. She came to me. But then I couldn't get in touch with her later.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2So shut it, and open yourself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"So that's it.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But I have a few leading questions:
RevRandy . . . 0,2Why would you want to be in touch with a dead person.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Is your answer forward or backward looking.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Do you believe that impediments to spirit communication is only on the physical side. Why or why not.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Cite personal experience.
WhiteTiger . . .and therein lies the crux... expectations of physical and worldly expressions... that dies with the flesh...
RevRandy . . . 0,2Have you ever experienced a radical breakthrough in spirit communication. If so, what changed before and after.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If you wish to communicate but can't or don't, what do you see as impediments.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And the clincher: Why do you assume that a failure to communicate is about you.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Shut and open is only about one side of the equation. And also no one size fits all.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Ok. One last image: Stupid U.S. tourist in Paris wants to get a table and a glass of wine.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If she speaks louder or slower or in Portuguese she still won't communicate.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Sometimes you just have to shut the fuck up and listen and trust the kindness of strange spirits.
Elissa . . .yes, wt... bingo, as it were :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2Maybe you weren't meant to talk, just to listen.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And maybe the spirit wasn't meant to talk, just to listen.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Communication does not imply conversation. That's enough." (10/21/2000)
RevRandy . . .OK - gang - talk away
journey . . .i missed coming here lol
firespirit . . .shut up and listen is the message pretty easy..
RevRandy . . .and to help, here are some "leading questions"
Elissa . . .((((((journey)))))) we missed you!
fang . . .i just dislike holidays,,, and miss them terribly
Hypernoodle . . .Hi Elissa :)
Hypernoodle . . .HI kxkoda :)
fang . . .or keep it simple stupid
Elissa . . .lol
fang . . .;)
firespirit . . .Yes fang...
kxkoda . . .hi
fang . . .no one implied there but myself
RevRandy . . . 0,2Why would you want to be in touch with a dead person.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Is your answer forward or backward looking.
WhiteTiger . . .and the other, implicit message.. sometimes THEY need to shut up.. despite how badly those here may be needing... remember, they didn't take the baggage
garthmom . . .but a medium can sometimes help bring messages to you if you don't have the ability to hear it yourself, right?
journey . . .their desire to communicate is not the same as ours i feel
Hypernoodle . . .not necessarily, Tiger
Elissa . . .yes, wt... it's scary how much we're agreeing tonight lol
fang . . .because i want advice from my father
fang . . .on how to live my life, ;)
firespirit . . .I had a million adc's after my dad's death..and the rest of my family claims they seen or heard nothing..
RevRandy . . .why the difference of experience, in your own opinion?
Elissa . . .sure, garthmom, if you need that... but it's better if you communicate directly in whatever way you can
journey . . .i feel their desire comes from more of a healing perspective and ours in the physical
garthmom . . .I go to the cemetery and feel close there but I only feel my loneliness
firespirit . . .I was listening my mom, brother and sister did not listen..
Elissa . . .fang, how do you know you're not getting it? maybe your father led you here
rustie . . .open you heart and mind and he will come to you, one way or another
fang . . .maybe
RevRandy . . .we may be missing the outcome we get because we don't see the outcomes we expect
Elissa . . .right
fang . . . i know if it wasn't for you all, my online family,,, i couldn't make it
RevRandy . . . 0,2Do you believe that impediments to spirit communication is only on the physical side. Why or why not.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Cite personal experience.
Deni . . .((((((((((fang))))))))))
RevRandy . . .o, fang .... we are here!
rustie . . .fang, don't try so hard
fang . . .fang's in the dumps tonight
garthmom . . .I saw a man walking down the street after my Dad died and he looked so much like him that I wanted to go up to him and hug him
rustie . . .he will come to you
Elissa . . .and fang, what that means is that part of your lesson of grief is connecting to those who can support you
WhiteTiger . . .oh gez no... from that side there are a ton of reasons to not be messing about in this place
fang . . .is it ok,,, online
Elissa . . .garthmom, that's a very normal occurrence
journey . . .i believe it works both ways Rev
RevRandy . . .garthmom -- I thought I saw Ericka many times
Hypernoodle . . .from whose point of view, Tiger......theirs or ours?
Deni . . .what do u mean WT?
WhiteTiger . . .if nothing else, there is the simple matter that duration is not the same there as here... sync'ing is hard
journey . . .because their self exists in spirit
Elissa . . .yes, wt
journey . . .and i believe healing is a two way street
RevRandy . . .understand WT
Elissa . . .it's often as difficult for spirit to talk to us as it is for us to talk to them
WhiteTiger . . .Deni- those "over there" have their own stuff to be coping with... and getting back to here is a pain in the butt lol
Hypernoodle . . .I agree with that, Elissa
Deni . . .ah....lol ok gotcha WT :)
Elissa . . .then you're very smart, hyper lol
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .lol
RevRandy . . .suppose you had moved on to communicating in thought symbols, not words, it would be like trying to have a serious conversation in Morse Code
RevRandy . . . 0,2Have you ever experienced a radical breakthrough in spirit communication. If so, what changed before and after.
Hypernoodle . . .thought is easier than words, imo
Hypernoodle . . .Is that a question, RR?
RevRandy . . .it is!
Elissa . . .that's a question
RevRandy . . .from Rikkity
RevRandy . . .anyone want to answer
Hypernoodle . . .The thing that changed with my 2nd communication that was audible was that the light bulbs burned out and anything that had a battery no longer worked properly.
journey . . .i will answer
WhiteTiger . . .lol hyper
Elissa . . .hyper, that's not exactly what we were looking for lol
journey . . .prior to my mom in laws passing, i heard loud and clear in a voice/thought
RevRandy . . .shocking WT
Hypernoodle . . .too bad.....hehe
fang . . .does it matter that my parents thought i was weird for believing in this
rustie . . .no
journey . . .i discounted it
journey . . .upon her passing, i saw energy
RevRandy . . .so were you more open to the ways that it would occur for you
Elissa . . .what she's asking, i think, is what changed in you?
Elissa . . .or for you? or with you?
journey . . .energy, and i knew and it stayed with me, i decided to find out why
journey . . .and the why lead me here and there
journey . . .but for sure lead me and so, i know, but i cant give that to others, it happens the way it should for each peep
RevRandy . . .each of us in our own way
Hypernoodle . . .Why should anything change when the communication has always been there?
Hypernoodle . . .I don't remember when it was not there
Elissa . . .well, for example, grief is what changed me
WhiteTiger . . .personally, I seem to be deaf and blind to ghosties
Hypernoodle . . .naw.....you have heard them here
Deni . . .the first big-smack me upside the head- experience I had did just that...opened my eyes to the possibility of life after death and sent me on a new journey
RevRandy . . . 0,2If you wish to communicate but can't or don't, what do you see as impediments.
fang . . .me
Hypernoodle . . .sounds good, Deni :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2And the clincher: Why do you assume that a failure to communicate is about you.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Shut and open is only about one side of the equation. And also no one size fits all.
journey . . .i was about 8ish, screaming from my room about the lady in there, old and in rocker, my parents said i dreamed big
RevRandy . . .journey --- because they couldn't see, you shouldn't have seen
journey . . .it was not until one year ago, they told me they were freaked cuz she fit someone in family that had passed, lol
journey . . .they still think me odd, but it's ok as long as i dont talk too much about it :)
Elissa . . .IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hypernoodle . . .got it
fang . . .wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttttttttt
RevRandy . . .YES IT IS ... WE ARE THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE (at least I am)
Elissa . . .(sorry for shouting, but i feel strongly about that one as you can tell lol)
fang . . .lol
RevRandy . . .being considered odd may be a badge of the open minded
Elissa . . .journey, odd is a good thing to be :)
Hypernoodle . . .hmmmmm
WhiteTiger . . .actually, only our stuff is about us (and not even all of that is)
Deni . . .what is it all about Elissa?
fang . . .oh good,, i'm not the only odd one
Elissa . . .deni, i'd tell you but that would be my answer, not yours (how's that for slick lol)
Deni . . .slick...very slick
Noni . . .lol
Elissa . . .thankyouverymuch
journey . . .i think it is about us and it is very much
Deni . . .Elvis has left the building
fang . . .uh oh it's getting slick in here ;)
journey . . .we are here because it is about us
Elissa . . .elvis is always with us :)
WhiteTiger . . .well tell him to take off the sequins.. the glare is killing me
RevRandy . . .Well, I am going to post another PtoP whilst Elvis is out
RevRandy . . . 0,12"Everybody is always here, but I can only sense the ones who have a role to
RevRandy . . . 0,12play with me right now. If and when I need to learn from them they will be
RevRandy . . . 0,12here for me. It's the same in life. People appear to come and go from your
RevRandy . . . 0,12life but they are always there--it is your sensing that comes and goes.
RevRandy . . . 0,12That's why sometimes you need someone and it seems like they suddenly appear
RevRandy . . . 0,12across a crowded room.
RevRandy . . . 0,12
RevRandy . . . 0,12"You create your own reality but the universe provides the materials. Focus
RevRandy . . . 0,12or sense or attend or notice or separate from background or give credence to
RevRandy . . . 0,12or envision or let happen. If you paid attention to that list you would see
RevRandy . . . 0,12that here there is no substantial difference between religious concepts like
RevRandy . . . 0,12prayer or surrender or intense meditation or yoga empty mind or humanistic
RevRandy . . . 0,12intense reason or Gestalt or transactional analysis. All can be paths to
RevRandy . . . 0,12relationships we seek or need, or that seek or need us.
RevRandy . . . 0,12
RevRandy . . . 0,12"If you truly need to relate, only you can keep it from happening. And if
RevRandy . . . 0,12you don't want to relate, no path can take you there. And if you want to
RevRandy . . . 0,12relate, any and every path will take you there." (10/8/95 - I#1)
RevRandy . . .I wanted to include this one because
RevRandy . . .of the statement in is that it is not about getting the one
RevRandy . . .approved
RevRandy . . .certified
RevRandy . . .proven
RevRandy . . .way of getting in touch with spirit
RevRandy . . .but about what each person needs to do who wants to be in touch
RevRandy . . .which is to be open in themselves
RevRandy . . .you could attend a million seminars on "how to"
journey . . .see :), it is about "us"
rustie . . .open their minds and souls
RevRandy . . .but without a radical shutting off (of the past)
RevRandy . . .and an equally radical openness (to the possibilities of the future)
RevRandy . . .no seminar, book, schema, medium, will get us there
Elissa . . .lol journey
fang . . .i'm more a john lennon person
Elissa . . .imagine that, fang :)
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
fang . . .it's hard to shut off the past,, it's all i have left of them
RevRandy . . .ah, fang, there's the rub --- do you have the courage (and faith and hope) to suspend that hold on the past
RevRandy . . .to see if there is a future awaiting in new and different ways
fang . . .i'll try
rustie . . .forgive ourselves and we will begin to open ourself up to the love
fang . . .does that mean i can't miss them anymore?
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Elissa . . .that's lovely, rustie
rustie . . .warmth of them being there
RevRandy . . .you can miss them, but not be beholden to them
Elissa . . .no, fang, it just means you need to find them in the future a little bit
WhiteTiger . . .nor have them beholden to you (imo)
fang . . .i hate being alone ,,, without them
RevRandy . . .and yes, WT
rustie . . .how can we miss them if they are here with us all the time
rustie . . .we are never alone
journey . . .because we miss the physical, the loving energy is still with us
Noni . . .it's the physical presence we miss
Elissa . . .we miss them physically, but they are more than physical remnants
fang . . .i guess i'm selfish,,, i miss their physical beings
RevRandy . . .often when we miss them in fear we really "miss" them in their emerging reality for us
RevRandy . . .O - I miss Ericka so much some times it is painful.
fang . . .amen
rustie . . .we miss the touch of their hands
RevRandy . . .But then sometimes I so glory in her spiritual presence I am filled beyond all words
Elissa . . .here's something from Rikkity's theory of bereavement that i think is crucial to what we're talking about here:
journey . . .their energy and missed and presence is what propels us sometimes to our greatness, our achievements even
Elissa . . . 2,9"... Only when both of the parties are in a moved-on state can they
Elissa . . . 2,9progress and relate. Some folks do well at letting go of the dead
Elissa . . . 2,9person but cling to their past selves; and others move on fine but
Elissa . . . 2,9never recognize the loss of the other.
Elissa . . . 2,9You need to both see the other as gone in the familiar terms and
Elissa . . . 2,9you as being changed or different if you are to connect.
Elissa . . . 2,9And what connects is not the superficial of the past but
Elissa . . . 2,9the essential that transcends.
Elissa . . . 2,9
Elissa . . . 2,9"So, do you relate and connect to me as black or white--
Elissa . . . 2,9or rather black and white... moo--no, you connect to the ‘me'
Elissa . . . 2,9that deals with differences. The black and white fall away,
Elissa . . . 2,9but what I learned and remembered stays.
Elissa . . . 2,9So connection is spirit to spirit, not person to person.
Elissa . . . 2,9And it's the same for me, because now I see y'all as parents
Elissa . . . 2,9and as parents with gender change and as shipmates and siblings
Elissa . . . 2,9and partner and spouse and much more; and, therefore, much less
Elissa . . . 2,9as all that falls away. If I am ‘me' when I am male and
Elissa . . . 2,9female, white, black, red, yellow, green... huh...
Elissa . . . 2,9fat, short, tall, skinny, wise, dumb, etc., then none of that matters.
Elissa . . . 2,9So, connection is the stage in which two spirits
Elissa . . . 2,9deprived of their physical connections reconnect." (excerpt from 7/22/2000)
fang . . .ya want to adopt me rev, and elissa ? ;)
rustie . . .never feel alone, because they are always with us. once you forgive your self you will feel the love of them being there.
Elissa . . .this is so clear...
WhiteTiger . . .I dunno... seems to me that clinging to what was cuz it felt good is rather like trying to live yer whole life in the third grade cuz ya had more fun there
Elissa . . .ok fang :)
m282 . . .isn't it humanly necessary and needed to feel our human loss - the hand to caress, the smile to share - heal our hurt in order to experience our loved ones
Noni . . .it's a soul-to-soul connection
Elissa . . .the physical details
Elissa . . .of our loved ones' lives belong to the past because they are not
Elissa . . .physical any longer!
rustie . . .i agree
RevRandy . . .shhhhhhhh- Elissa wants to speak
Elissa . . . do we long for them to be? sure... do we agonize
Elissa . . .over that? of course!
Elissa . . .but as long as we remain stuck like crazy glue to
Elissa . . .our image of who they WERE, we will not be able to connect with who they
Elissa . . .ARE...
Elissa . . .that thought can be scary...
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Elissa . . .maybe you're thinking, "so, in order
Elissa . . .to communicate, i have to let go totally and i can't do that." but no,
Elissa . . .you are not required to let go totally...
Elissa . . .even i have not been able to do
Elissa . . .that...
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Elissa . . .what you are required to do is be willing to suspend holding on...
Elissa . . .willing to let the past BE in the past, where you can visit it from time
Elissa . . .to time, but not live in it...
Elissa . . .willing to recognize that your loved one
Elissa . . .has changed and that you don't know how and cannot follow them...
WhiteTiger . . .shrug . . .the package and wrappings have nothing to do with the contents... who is inside is what counts, and if that be true, then the physical is insignificant (imo)
Elissa . . .willing
Elissa . . .to move forward knowing that they, too, are moving forward...
Elissa . . .willing to
Elissa . . .understand that their room, their clothes, their hair or eyes or laugh,
Elissa . . .is not who they are now...
m282 . . .yes
Elissa . . .but that their love for you and their essence
Elissa . . .remains and is eternal...
Elissa . . .THEN is when you will begin to connect
fang . . .kind of like hold on loosely but don't let go, if you cling too tightly you'll lose control
Elissa . . .ok, now you may speak :)
Elissa . . .good song, fang
rustie . . .letting go is not easy
journey . . .letting go takes much time i think
RevRandy . . .but holding on to an image of a lost reality is an empty promise
m282 . . .my experience - the more I grieve the loss the more I am receiving
rustie . . .a lot of time
Noni . . .its a continuing process for me
Elissa . . .wonderful, m282... and welcome :)
journey . . .we dont really let go, we just learn to live with letting go
gmb . . .journey, that is a very accurate statement
Elissa . . .it is a process... and that's the point... you don't have to do it perfectly in order to communicate
rustie . . .letting go to me means , if you let go you forget
fang . . .like holding on to mercury,, it will ball up in your hand,,,,,, but if you try to hold it in a fist,,, it goes out between your fingers
Elissa . . .that's the fear, rustie... do you really believe you could forget someone you love who is part of you?
rustie . . .sometimes
journey . . .we let ourselves move thru the process and honor our loved ones by living, that is how i feel
Elissa . . .yes fang
m282 . . .rustie - you sound like yr loss has been close.. it's a universal fear in grief
Noni . . .nicely said journey
journey . . .ty noni
Elissa . . .it's ok if you forget details... you'll always remember what is essential
rustie . . .I don't close any of my feelings and or grief
Elissa . . .hi marie :)
rustie . . .I lost my sister when I was very young and I don't want to ever forget her
Marie1 . . .hi Elissa
journey . . .you know how we tend to say, "oh they were a saint" , like we have forgotten the misdeeds we felt regarding them,,,it's just that the love we received shines over any misdeed and we keep what love we felt, imho
Elissa . . .you can't forget what is part of you... that relationship was about both of you, not just about her
rustie . . .so I hold on at times and I don't talk about her to any one
Elissa . . .yes, journey, and maybe we're afraid to see them as real people
RevRandy . . . 1,9"Memory serves both well and ill. When it contains life it is good, but when it restrains life it is not. Keep me alive in you, but don't let that keep you from living. You don't have to choose one or the other, but can have both. So, think of things as part of a whole, not as separate elements that compete for your allegiance and love." (2/6/96 - G#14)
journey . . .that's beautiful!
Elissa . . .and was very helpful for me at that time
rustie . . .what memory.......... that was very pretty
RevRandy . . .you don't have to give up one for the other -- but to find ways through one to let you also hold the other
m282 . . .elissa - how long has it been for you
Elissa . . .memory meaning remembering
Elissa . . .5 years and 2 months, m282
RevRandy . . .a lifetime and a split second
Elissa . . .yes
rustie . . .Elissa
rustie . . .question
Elissa . . .go, rustie
rustie . . .If I don't remember her, what does that mean
RevRandy . . .and just as she is not the same as when she died, we are not the same as when she died .... but we have found a way to progress into a shared future
rustie . . .all I remember is seeing her death take place
Elissa . . .rustie, it may just mean you were too young
journey . . .(((rustie))))
rustie . . .it was over 30 years ago
rustie . . .yes
Elissa . . .and sometimes we block out what is too painful to bear or understand... especially if parents don't allow us to talk about it
rustie . . .my parents say I was to young to understand what was happening
Elissa . . .that's all too common, rustie... adults don't understand how children respond to death so they think they're not grieving
Elissa . . .any last questions or comments or thoughts?
RevRandy . . ."It's A-ok with me if you forget me once in awhile. We will connect as we need to. Don't fashion your lives about remembering me but about living. Then you will remember me in everything you do.
RevRandy . . ."I will always be with you, but more as a gentle whisper of night and a dawn's first breath and the midday's hot power than as a picture captured in time, made yellow and faded with age. If I go away from you I am not gone from you and if you go away from me you are not gone from me. For such is the nature of souls bound as an entity." (4/2/96 - G#22)
rustie . . .I have 2 kids and I want to tell them about their aunt but I can't remember her
journey . . .i like the term entity
RevRandy . . .it does imply a unity, a connection even across separation, to me
journey . . .entity to me speaks of equal in spirit
RevRandy . . .yep -- an equity of the connection
Elissa . . .ok, this has been a good discussion for me, and i hope a helpful one for you...
RevRandy . . .well, folks, this is the end of our evening together
RevRandy . . .thanks for coming
Elissa . . .thank you all for sharing yourselves
fang . . .sorry i was late again
Elissa . . .here's the rainbow song
Noni . . .thank you both Elissa and Rev
RevRandy . . .yw
rustie . . .thank you both
journey . . .thank you Rev and Elissa, I am thankful to have come, you are a wonderful team
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa . . . 10,0!Elissa rainbow.mid 0,10 :o)
RevRandy . . .ty - see you all next week, I hope
fang . . .yes thank you rev, and elissa
Marie1 . . .{{{{{{{{{rev and Elissa}}}}}}}
Elissa . . .thank you noni and journey... so glad you came!!!
RevRandy . . .((((((((((((((((Marie))))))))))))
Elissa . . .((((((((((((((((((SP)))))))))))))))))))))
kxkoda . . .Thank you all.
fang . . .how do i give you all halos
RevRandy . . .see you soon Keiko
kxkoda . . .see you.
rustie . . .Thank you both
Elissa . . .it's the thought that counts, fang.... thank you :)
Elissa . . .see you next weekend, keiko?
fang . . .yw
rustie . . .may god be with you both
RevRandy . . .merci
kxkoda . . .I'm looking forward to.
RevRandy . . .buona sera
Elissa . . .you too, rustie :)
rustie . . .thank you
*** RevRandy has quit IRC (QUIT: Live and Enjoy! Learn and Remember! And, O, what it journey it will be! )
fang . . .ooooo,,, ooooo
Elissa . . .nite all!
fang . . .night
rustie . . .night
kxkoda . . .good night.
journey . . .nite all, see ya next time! (((room)))
Noni . . .Goodnight all.....take care :)
Session Close: Sun Oct 22 23:31:13 2000


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Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker,M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 1999-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.

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