10/08/2000 - PERCEPTION, REALITY, AND THE FUTURE

Session Start: Sun Oct 08 20:45:50 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Perception, Reality, and the Future" 2,9Sunday 2,11October 8 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy hello, welcome to SP
Elissa hi veronica :)
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Elissa ((((((Keiko))))))!!!!!!!!!!
RevRandy hey keiko
RevRandy ((((((((((((((((Keiko))))))))))))))
Elissa i'm so glad you're here!
kxkoda Hi, Elissa!
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Elissa ((((((wt))))))
RevRandy hello Tiger
kxkoda Hi, Tiger!
WhiteTiger RR, Elissa :)
WhiteTiger hi kxkoda
RevRandy Well, now that we have a group - we will get started
RevRandy welcome to Spiritual Persistence chat
RevRandy our weekly time to explore spiritual ideas
RevRandy Elissa usually runs a simple intro for us .... and since this is Keiko's first time .....
WhiteTiger play the intro, play the intro! lol
Elissa :P~~~
RevRandy behave
Elissa want it, keiko?
RevRandy so play that bean footage .... o, I mean the intro
kxkoda thank you.
Elissa ok then
Elissa RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
Elissa a Masters degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
Elissa My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa on August 20, 1995.
Elissa She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa and I began communicating with her.
Elissa Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for the
Elissa wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa Ponder.
Elissa It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa or email Randy (RevRandy@spiritualpersistence.com)
Elissa or me (ebb@spiritualpersistence.com) any time. Please let us know
Elissa if you would like to be on our email list. Thanks for coming...
Elissa and again, welcome!
Elissa Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
kxkoda No.
RevRandy And we always begin with some simple words of invocation -
RevRandy please join in the spirit of these words
RevRandy 0,2May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy 0,2Protected from all things evil
RevRandy 0,2And guided in all ways gracious.
RevRandy Amen
kxkoda Amen
Elissa amen~
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WhiteTiger aho
RevRandy hello angelv
RevRandy welcome to SP
kxkoda Hello angelv
Elissa hi angelv :)
angelv hello all
RevRandy Tonight we are going to be thinking together about perception, reality, and lots more.
RevRandy And to lead off, a simple question
* WhiteTiger rubs paws in anticipation
RevRandy how do you determine what is real for you?
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WhiteTiger aw shucks! it was one I could answer
Elissa hey hyper!
kxkoda Hi, Hypernoodle.
WhiteTiger Dudette :)
Hypernoodle Hi Elissa :)
Hypernoodle hi kxkoda :)
Hypernoodle TigerDude :)
Hypernoodle Did I miss the intro?
RevRandy good thing you got here -- WT was rubbing his paws together in your absence
Elissa kx is our friend Keiko, who was in the counseling program with me
WhiteTiger narc!
kxkoda Nice to meet you all.
Elissa yes you did hyper, sorry
Hypernoodle aww.....shucks
Hypernoodle I think I have it already :)
WhiteTiger lol
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Hypernoodle Do we have to behave since there are new guests?
RevRandy by the way --- we are now posting the logs of chats on our website -- usually by mid-week
Elissa probably about 30 copies lol
RevRandy have we ever behaved
Hypernoodle lol
Giulia Hello
Elissa welcome giulia
kxkoda Hi, Giulia.
Hypernoodle I try not to
Giulia thank you :-)
RevRandy hi Giulia
Elissa so randy, the question was?
RevRandy so that simple question again --- how do you determine what is real for you?
RevRandy how you know what is real?
Hypernoodle I know!
RevRandy go for it
WhiteTiger easy one :) if I can conceive it, it's real. All that varies is the immediate relevance
Elissa hyper's got the answer!!!!
Hypernoodle If it fits into my delusional mind, it is real :)
WhiteTiger lol
Elissa hahahahaha good answer
RevRandy is your delusional world a conception of WT's mind?
Hypernoodle nope
Hypernoodle I had it first!
Hypernoodle :)
RevRandy is he a delusion of yours?
Elissa immediate relevance?
Hypernoodle nope
WhiteTiger (let her have her illusion) ;)
Hypernoodle He just fell into mine
Hypernoodle quite by accident.......maybe :)
* Elissa pastes a big gold star on hyper's forehead
Hypernoodle thanks!
RevRandy so reality, WT, is a conception of your own
RevRandy does that mean you create that reality?
WhiteTiger no RR... my perception is a conception of my own.. what is, is regardless whether I know it is or not, and regardless whether I like it
Hypernoodle I have a better question :)
RevRandy yes (he says with a worried look on his face)
Elissa lol
* Hypernoodle just came in to stir up trouble :)
Giulia I would say when all in regard the answer you're giving yourself, compaginates or is in harmony with to give what you need and others'...
Hypernoodle oh sheez.....where is that dictionary
Giulia lol
Elissa giulia could you say more about that?
RevRandy Giulia - are you saying a consensus of impressions
Hypernoodle My question is.......what happens when Tiger's reality and Hyper's reality don't mesh?
Hypernoodle may go with Giulia's comment :)
Elissa then you go for couples counseling lol
Hypernoodle lolol
Giulia when your needs and others are met in the answer,,,(or truth)
RevRandy aha
Elissa ok, but are those needs always changing?
* WhiteTiger refrains from saying "then hyper loses" ;)
Hypernoodle that is probably a wise move :)
Giulia yes, but once the first needs are met
Giulia is a chain
WhiteTiger lol
Elissa uh oh, it's the couch for wt tonight
Hypernoodle lolol
Giulia lol
Hypernoodle Giulia?
WhiteTiger sleeping bag in the station wagon ;)
Giulia yes?
Giulia :)
Hypernoodle Are you saying that each person's reality depends on the needs of that person and the needs of those in that person's reality?
Giulia kind of...
Hypernoodle thanks :)
Giulia k :)
RevRandy I am intrigued by this .... that reality is need based
Elissa so, needs are what we perceive or focus on
RevRandy we perceive a reality to meet our needs
Hypernoodle that is an interesting thought ...... hmmm
WhiteTiger Q: are we talking needs, desires, or wants?
Hypernoodle think I'll think a minute
Giulia because we are getting experiences all the time, and when you act in "truth", or when you are thinking about something and ask for the truth
Hypernoodle Are "truth" and needs the same?
Giulia then we feel that "truthfullness", when all needs involved
Giulia needs saying that is beneficial
* WhiteTiger asks "what is truth" and reaches for a handiwipe
Giulia lol
Giulia wt
Hypernoodle and from your last question, Tiger.....what are needs?
* Hypernoodle wonders when RR is going to try to regain control?
Giulia all's
RevRandy our needs become filters of the immense set of experiences we have --- we see a reality that allows us to most fully be ourselves
Elissa giulia my sense is that you're talking about the common good rather than individual needs... or is it both... or neither lol
RevRandy (I don't want or need control......)
Giulia taking about the general view
Elissa o yeah right
Giulia not personal
Hypernoodle cool....this is a good discussion :)
Hypernoodle thanks RR :)
Hypernoodle so something like universal needs?
Elissa interesting perspective
RevRandy then there is a collective reality which arises in a culture .... meeting the needs of the many people
Giulia :-)
Giulia thank you
Elissa so, when you're starving your reality is food or the search for it (something like that?)
WhiteTiger needs are essentials... that without which either life or some prime element of it is not possible... desires are the most amorphous of the "wish I had"s, wants are the most concrete form of them
RevRandy if the necessary building blocks of connection are some form of shared experience, then that becomes a need, an essential, of community -- of relating
RevRandy by positing a common reality, we make relating possible
WhiteTiger yep :) we are gregarious by nature
RevRandy hey - if my world and your world are of different realities, we won't have much to say to one another
Giulia when I'm thinking of needs is not the personal needs if we look too close, because we then loose the big picture...(as Rikkity says:-)...but the general view , and not too far either because we are not involved then...truth becomes the middle point, balance
Elissa so it's where our field intersects with another's or others'?
WhiteTiger consensus is truth?
Giulia kind of...yes
RevRandy I have this sense that you and I (Giulia) come from two different directions -- you see reality as the meeting place of two different perceptions, and I see reality as a projection of my perception into the projected fields of others
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Elissa i think i have a sense of what you mean
RevRandy (which may not be that different actually)
RevRandy hello fang
Giulia if its only your reality it is not truth....
fang hello
Elissa hey fang :)
Giulia hi fang
fang hi
kxkoda Hi,
Giulia think we are a little mix up now lol
RevRandy but is truth in the consensus, or caught in the web among all the perceptions and projections
Elissa i think my reality is a part of the larger truth... but i might be deluded lol
WhiteTiger Giulia- I'm not too sure about that... nothing to determine that all realities, even private ones are not true, imo
Giulia hehe.
RevRandy or the larger truth could be deluded
RevRandy is there a central "truth" -- or do we deal with a system of truths?
Elissa let's look at a ptop and see what it evokes
RevRandy good idea
Giulia larger truth is clear view...when we feel we have a clear view, is when we see the whole view
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WhiteTiger about the only thing we can be sure of concerning reality is that we see but a tiny sliver of a fragment of it... gets tough to extrapolate a train from one screw holding a fixture in the train
Elissa 0,6"There are other worlds.
Elissa 0,6But do we have choice, is there a cosmic travel agent, no.
Elissa 0,6But we choose to make opportunities out of experiences.
Elissa 0,6Look, you are so many places that some have to seem real to you in relation to your needs.
Elissa 0,6You choose to see and experience and remember what's important.
Elissa 0,6Quick, name every movie you've forgotten.
Elissa 0,6See, can't do it--even though there are many.
Elissa 0,6You were there when they were screened and your eyes beheld them, but they are not real for you.
Elissa 0,6So too with lives.
Elissa 0,6Been there and not done that.
Elissa 0,6Real for others maybe;
Elissa 0,6but then, what's not real now can become real as you become more fulfilled and that which was lost is found--
Elissa 0,6in those moments when you suddenly get it without any clue from what you knew you knew.
Elissa let me pause there and ask what you think so far
Giulia :-)
Elissa part of what this says to me is that reality has to do with memory
kxkoda I agree Elissa's idea. Reality affect me in any way, in my memory, change my life, connection, etc.
WhiteTiger I love one line in that PtoP :)
Giulia right
Giulia I agree
Elissa thanks keiko... that's Rikkity :)
Elissa which one wt
RevRandy but this also says that reality is organic -- moving and changing
kxkoda Hi, Rikkity,
Elissa :)
WhiteTiger you are so many places that some have to seem real to you
Elissa yes, what's real is always becoming as our awareness expands and grows
Elissa o yes, i love that one too
Giulia I related truth with needs because when we act in truth (then seeing the whole picture)...we act according to our needs ,,,to experience what for example ..seeing what we REALLY need to see to grow
RevRandy when we speak of real, are we talking about our whole experience as a spirit, or just one facet facing this physical world?
Elissa ah i see, giulia... good point!
Giulia and act according to other's need, because when we act in truth, we are considering another's reality
Giulia not reality
Elissa here's the rest of that one:
Giulia needs to grow
Giulia k
WhiteTiger we, the "us" that does the experiencing (not the persona) are patterns of relationships... call 'em energy patterns if ya like. in the vastness of what is, those patterns are many times and places... we "are" wherever that pattern is
Elissa 0,6"Sometimes what happens is not in your remembered sequence,
Elissa 0,6but is in your experienced sequence as a resource.
Elissa 0,6Kind of like kinetic and potential energy.
Elissa 0,6We live with our kinetic memories, but there is always --
Elissa 0,6for all but first-timers--potential.
Elissa 0,6Think of potential memories, which our act of remembering and sequencing bring into active reality for us.
Elissa 0,6And, at the same time, some drop back from active to 'stored.'
Elissa 0,6And, as we fulfill, our active energy rises as we use and meaningfully sequence more.
Elissa 0,6We begin all action, no meaning, but in time we gain meaning;
Elissa 0,6and when we have both we are energetic little sons of bitches
Elissa 0,6and we can move on without the need for energy outside ourselves
Elissa 0,6and so the evolvement, the complexity, is a form of enhancement--not compensation for any lack.
Elissa 0,6And that's all I am going to say about that. Blech. Too heavy." (8/30/99 - I#37)
Giulia :-)
Giulia agree lol
Elissa giulia, as i hear what you're saying, it seems to fit with this
RevRandy Is this saying that our reality grows in complexity as we find ways of being more complex spiritually?
Giulia i feel at home when I read Rikkity's communications :)
Elissa :)
Elissa giulia, i'm so glad you came tonight!
Giulia thank you!! :-))
Giulia me too
Giulia ! hehe.
RevRandy she makes us feel at home too
Giulia :)
kxkoda :)
Giulia is great reading her ! I finally "know" someone who thinks "like me" lol
Giulia no lol
RevRandy :-)
WhiteTiger lol
Elissa here's another little tidbit:
Elissa 2,0"Transience is not always change, but only the perception of change.
Elissa 2,0Is something changing, or is your vantage.
Elissa 2,0And just because something seems permanent doesn't mean it is;
Elissa 2,0it could just mean its changes parallel yours.
Elissa 2,0And that's all I have to say about that." (4/5/98 - B#22)
Giulia what she means with Transience?
Giulia don't know the word
Elissa so, when our reality seems to change maybe it's we who are changing... and when it seems to stay the same,
Giulia I speak spanish :)
Elissa maybe it's just that we and it are changing the same way
WhiteTiger transient= moving, temporary
Giulia k
RevRandy transience is movement, motion
Elissa transience means change
Elissa all of the above lol
Giulia exactly agree! lol
* WhiteTiger picks door #3
* Elissa hides behind door #57
WhiteTiger lol
RevRandy I like that notion that permanent things may be changing, only at the same rate as we are --- which then sets up a sudden seeming change if we stand still
Giulia for example, I am in university and had a hard year because I felt it in a standstill, it was just perception because I was actually growing too, now I am not resisting to think I'm growing and changing and I do anyway,! lol just that I feel better knowing :)
RevRandy it is hard to tell sometimes ---
Elissa yes, giulia! often when we seem stuck it's because we're resisting coming to terms with change
Giulia so standstills are not never standstill, is standstill of perceiving what you are learning
Elissa and another one to ponder:
Elissa 2,7"So, look outside. What is that area.
Elissa 2,7Backyard.
Elissa 2,7And if it isn't there you never lost it.
Elissa 2,7But you've lost it many times. But seriously folks...
Elissa 2,7field, web of being; yes, your backyard is part of that.
Elissa 2,7And so if it isn't there it's not in your web.
Elissa 2,7Too many people look for what they think they lost,
Elissa 2,7but it was from someone else's web or field.
Elissa 2,7Your field and another connect, yes.
Elissa 2,7You hear stories about the other.
Elissa 2,7That doesn't mean it's in your backyard. It's in theirs.
Elissa 2,7There is an old story about dogs in Levittown who went crazy
Elissa 2,7trying to find bones they had buried in look-alike backyards.
Elissa 2,7"So, when we feel loss we have to be able to know what we lost; not just what we think we lost.
Elissa 2,7True, what we think we lost is real in a way,
Elissa 2,7but being able to so differentiate allows us a better understanding of ourselves and our field.
Elissa 2,7As we find out what of our feelings is not us, we also find us.
Giulia let me say that again lol, standstills are never standstills, is only a standstill of perceiving what you are learning and have learned
WhiteTiger ok... how can what has been ever be lost?
Elissa and from the next part of this PtoP:
Elissa 2,7And this also applies to dreams and hope.
Elissa 2,7If it isn't yours you can't lose it and if it is not yours you can't be it.
Elissa 2,7Maximize your reality within the field of YOUR being.
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Elissa so one way of knowing your reality is knowing the difference between what is in your field and what is in another's is what this seems to be saying to me
Elissa 2,7And conversely, when others try to load their stuff on you it is not yours either.
Elissa 2,7So when someone suggests you've lost it because you mourn too long,
Elissa 2,7how do they know you've lost it when it wasn't yours but theirs to begin with.
WhiteTiger that last line seems a bit silly (sorry). your own field is the only thing ya CAN perceive
Elissa 2,7"Go back only to find your own roots, not those of others.
Elissa 2,7And you'll know when you overreach your field.
Elissa 2,7It will feel foreign, even as you may artificially push toward it.
Elissa 2,7When someone sees your field as theirs, probe their experiential history.
Elissa 2,7If they really lost it they can tell you about when they had it, and if not... wellll.
Elissa wt, some people think they have lost something they never had... such as a happy childhood
RevRandy I have seen many people who appropriate whole lives from other people's fields -- not successfully, I might add
Hypernoodle nope....I don't understand that
Elissa (excerpt from 2/12/2000 - O#41)
WhiteTiger that's the problem with language.. it' a map, and it can be drawn false as easy as true
Hypernoodle How can you lose a happy childhood?
RevRandy you can't hyper -- but what if that childhood belonged to another family, another child, not you?
Hypernoodle then why would I think I lost it?
Elissa hyper, they didn't have a happy childhood so they think they lost it
Elissa is that clearer?
Hypernoodle It wasn't mine to start with ???
Hypernoodle hmmm
RevRandy If your culture told you all people were green
WhiteTiger hyper- folks assume they were sposed to have that happy childhood, and if that expectation didn't get fulfilled, to them it's the same as having some possession taken away
Elissa right, but many people perceive that as a loss
RevRandy and you never experienced yourself as green
Elissa right wt
RevRandy you might feel you had lost your greenness
Hypernoodle "It Ain't Easy...Being Green"
Hypernoodle (Kermit the Frog) :)
WhiteTiger oooo... lets do "kokomo"
Hypernoodle :)
RevRandy when we live someone else's tapes (life) we may end up feeling like we lost something we never really had for ourselves
kxkoda right.
RevRandy you can all keep talking -- Elissa and I need a break ...

*** RevRandy is now known as RevRandybrb
Lee how long is the break?
Hypernoodle Until they come back
Elissa hi lee.... about 8-10 minutes
Hypernoodle depends on what we talk about hehe
Giulia yes, that's a hard lesson for some,,,and that's why many people don't have joy of their own lives, because people (including me sometimes) have the idea that what we feel the lives of people around us, and that they're our emotions too or growing experiences, and they are not, we feel happy or sad for them, or because they are sad or happy we do too, but in reality, but we need to feel what we Really are feeling, that leaves us in a
Lee are you a reverend?
*** Elissa is now known as Elissa_brb
Giulia k see U soon lol
Hypernoodle Lee, RevRandy is indeed a reverend :)
Giulia brb too :)
Lee would someone mind telling me briefly about this group and the discussion...this is my first visit..
*** RevRandybrb is now known as RevRandy
RevRandy Hi Lee - this is a discussion of spiritual issues drawn from after-life communications that Elissa and I have with our daughter, who is known as Rikkity in spirit
RevRandy And I am, indeed, a minister -- in fact, today is the 28th anniversary of my ordination!
kxkoda Oh, congratulations!!
Hypernoodle Congratulations!
WhiteTiger thx RR... saved me some clicking :)
fang 12congrats rev
RevRandy ty all
RevRandy it has been an adventursome road those many years
* fang hands RevRandy a 4Dozen Roses
RevRandy wow -- I love that, thanks
fang yw
fang lol ;)
RevRandy This is a very cosmopolitan group tonight - from many parts of the physical world (not to mention spiritual)
* WhiteTiger is from waaaaaay out in left field ;)
Hypernoodle That is the cotton field, Tiger
*** Elissa_brb is now known as Elissa
RevRandy Hey, we even have species diversity -- one tiger
Hypernoodle and noodles!
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WhiteTiger oooo... well ain't we just PC *G*
Hypernoodle lol
RevRandy hello anne
Anne hi everyone
Elissa hi anne

RevRandy This is a wonderful group
RevRandy and it is time to get started again
Elissa hyper what was your question?
Lee I have been wondering what the world might be like if we all KNEW that there is life after...how do you think we would change..what would it be like?
Hypernoodle that is okay.....go ahead so we don't lag behind
Elissa we're always behind hyper
Hypernoodle hehe
Elissa it's our normal condition
Hypernoodle not a bad place to be
Elissa with Rikkity around, you get used to it lol
RevRandy well, Lee, maybe I will get to that in what I want to say in just a moment - so hold that question
Hypernoodle gives you something to shoot for :)
Elissa exactly :)
* WhiteTiger questions the notion that any of this crowd have "normal" conditions
Elissa it's all normal, wt... normal abnormalities
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Giulia hehe he
kxkoda Hi, sanantu.
Elissa hi sanantu :)
RevRandy Well, as we have been talking about reality and perception, I wanted to add some thoughts from other disciplines
Sanantu Hi Elissa...hi all
RevRandy (and heaven knows there is not much discipline in this group)
RevRandy hi Sanantu
Hypernoodle You did not tell us to bring our discipline
Lee I am very interested RevRandy
Sanantu Hi RevRandy
RevRandy The two traditions I want to talk about are religion and science
Giulia k
RevRandy and some thought about an link between the two
WhiteTiger you mean science and other religions, don't you? ;)
RevRandy For most religions, reality is not based on personal experience of perception
RevRandy (yep, WT)
RevRandy but on one's acceptance of the experiences of others
RevRandy something that is reported as having happened to someone else is taken as universal
RevRandy so reality becomes a matter of projecting outward from one experience to a supposed universal
RevRandy and religion asks (insists, actually) that you buy into the projection as if it were the experience
RevRandy and that the reality suggested by the experience becomes your own
RevRandy (This, in fact, has always been the tension point with new religious thinkers, for they -- be they the Buddha, or Jesus, or Mohammed --
Lee Generally people have gotten burned for having their own perceptions, or now medicated
RevRandy insist that people should have a personal, primary experience of the transcendent)
WhiteTiger lol.... prozac uber alles
RevRandy yep -- lots of stakes on fire!
fang oh no, i should be medicated? lol
RevRandy Religion, therefore, says that one experience should serve all
RevRandy Now science takes a different tack
fang send it on lol
fang sorry i couldn't resist;)
Elissa lol fang
RevRandy in stating that reality will have to be decided by a preponderance of evidence that can be experienced by many
Lee the "right" many
RevRandy in this model, the individual experience become just one more dot in the long line of dots that uphold some finding
RevRandy and those individual experiences that do not conform are somehow forgotten, ignored, decried, etc
kxkoda are you talking about reality of science?
RevRandy in both traditions, science and religion, there is a drive toward there being but one reality
RevRandy I am talking about the reality of the word as seen through scientific eyes
Lee pathologized or demonized..its the same
kxkoda ok
WhiteTiger religion ignores number and focuses on experience... science ignores experience an is centered on quantification.... and both are flip sides of the "one size fits all" coin, imo
RevRandy but the problem is that the science of 1066, for example, yields a different reality than the science of 2000
RevRandy yes - WT -- agree
Elissa great summary, wt :)
WhiteTiger ;)
Giulia I think religion haven't meet with science yet because one is based by scientific investigation to test and prove, and the other in trying put meaning to the results which doesn't interests science as it can't be truly proven
kxkoda exactly.
*** Hypernoodle is now known as WHypernoodle
RevRandy we still struggle with the classic Emersonian quest for the authentic, courageous individual who will use his/her experience to connect to others, not control or denigrate
Elissa why-pernoodle? rofl!
WHypernoodle Because I always sit next to the student who has all the answers :)
RevRandy And I had one more thought I wanted to add in --
RevRandy about discovery and revelation -- terms misused -- the first by science, and the second by religion
RevRandy what we usually are told are "bold, new discoveries"
RevRandy are actually just continuations of our present perceptions.
RevRandy Few things are true discoveries --- things beyond the realm of the known, or beyond the realm of the possible based on the existing modes of thought
Giulia yes
RevRandy On the other hand, revelation is often made to look like some mystical experience that must be divinely endowed to a lucky few,
RevRandy by which they get special knowledge
RevRandy It seems to me, IMHO (well, not all that humble)
Giulia hehe.
* Elissa being one of the elite few LOL
WHypernoodle lol
RevRandy that what we find making the real changes of perception (and therefore reality)
* Elissa ducking Rikkity's incoming fire
WhiteTiger don't both look suspiciously like ego stroking? "gee, I'm special, cuz I know *this*"
RevRandy are moments of revelation, in which a whole new piece of reality is revealed
WHypernoodle hehe
RevRandy without a basis in prior perception
RevRandy now that would be a true discovery --
Lee RevRandy..it often seems that religion is an preventative, a roadblock, against spirituality..can you discuss this...you cant control someone who has direct experience of the sacred.
RevRandy to suddenly and abruptly see things differently
WhiteTiger I like yer choice of words, RR. "discovery" instead of creation or invention :)
RevRandy Lee -- sure -- religion belongs to the class of social structures known as oligarchies -- existing power structures
RevRandy and all oligarchies will do anything to stay in power except change
Giulia but Reality or Truth doesn't, perception or way of seeing is not then necessarily true, Truth becomes then not perception but the lessons learned in that perspective
Elissa lee, one thing we need to keep in mind, i think, is that religion cannot do anything without adherents buying into the "program"
RevRandy and individual experience is all about being receptive to revelation, and therefore change
Lee yes
WhiteTiger lol elissa... no "followers", no religion.. just another lone nut on the streetcorner ;)
RevRandy Giulia - could you say more --
Elissa yep :)
RevRandy systems that at one time approach a little closer to the truth then stop as if truth stops ... and in time they become irrelevant
RevRandy science has done this as often as religion!
WhiteTiger at least
RevRandy remember it was the scientists as well as the priests who denounced Galileo
RevRandy because structure of seeming stability give a (false) sense of security
Elissa but many people behave as though they are still relevant
Elissa and our way of looking at the world is influenced by both science and religion... whether we believe in them or not... unless we become aware of
Elissa how our perceptions are influenced by them
Lee someone told me recently that afterlife visitations are from "demons"...this seems an amazing was to make people afraid of personal experiences.
RevRandy are we, each of us, really, emotionally ready to deal with the infinite road of revelation and meaning that lies ahead?
RevRandy Lee -- that is a classic case of using fears to denounce the unfamiliar
RevRandy to make the individual doubt his/her experiences
WhiteTiger safety and it's pursuit are traps, imo... one of the creator's ways of keeping the infants in the crib... have to grow beyond that need to step outside and risk falling down
Lee if we take it a step at a time..infinity step by step.
Elissa and on that note...
Elissa i have some questions from Rikkity to present to you... and the first one is:
Giulia that's why the Truth is not the perception we have of things, so for example I say "this is this" , it is based on a perspective, but not necessarily true, the Truth remains untouchable and diff perspectives...what was the question? lol
Elissa "is our system of knowing consistent with how we actually operate"
Giulia k
WhiteTiger Giulia- agree.. how it looks ain't necessarily how it IS ;)
Giulia :)
Elissa do we really operate as though all experience is the same for all?
WhiteTiger hmmmm... I'm not convinced humans have a system of knowing... seems pretty slapdash to me, most times
Lee i would say yes...we can only act from what we know..(not what we think)
Elissa do we really operate as though our reality is frozen and static... or only knowable through quantitative proof?
WhiteTiger lee- or what we think we know? ;)
Elissa what about YOUR system of knowing, wt?
Lee is how we operate consistent with what we know..i thought was the question
WhiteTiger *best sgt schultz voice* "I know nooothing!"
Elissa yes, lee
Elissa but do you act as though you know nothing?
Lee how can we act in any other way
WhiteTiger I don't have a system, Elissa... I'm just crazy
Elissa and THAT is the question, lee :)
Elissa no comment, wt lol
WhiteTiger lol
Giulia lol
Elissa can we operate differently and more in accordance with how we actually experience our reality
RevRandy Lee - there have been times when I have "known" some things, but operated as if they were not experienced
Lee if you want to see what you know...look at how you act
RevRandy and it was only with integration of those things that I was able to sense a new wholeness
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WhiteTiger elissa- can we experience our reality so that we may operate more in accordance with what is?
kxkoda hi, glo.
glo hello
Giulia I think we do act with a system of knowing (or believes)..but we ALL don't access much what we know (in other words remember), and that's why perception of the experience is a little disturb for some
Giulia and makes them not joyful and learning in harmony with themselves
RevRandy WT - isn't more of a loop than just a one way thing
WhiteTiger chicken/egg ;)
Elissa wt, i'm pondering that one
RevRandy I'll have the omelet with toast and coffee
WhiteTiger I'll go with the cafe complet
WHypernoodle Why can't "what is" be more in line with what we remember experiencing?
RevRandy but the tension, giulia, is there -- of what we learn but do not remember
Elissa here's an example: do we operate as though linear time exists? and do we believe linear time exists?
WhiteTiger hyper- cuz we have more of a "forgettery" than a "memory"?
WHypernoodle But not everyone........
Giulia loo good Q
RevRandy Elissa - good question
Elissa i think so :)
Elissa second question: "what different ways of perception would aid in getting to realities we
Elissa desire"
WhiteTiger I don't believe linear time exists, beyond our need for limiting inputs to the level we can cope with
RevRandy I operate on linear time, but I believe in non-linear time, and in the process of believing I am sensing that the linearity is breaking down in practice
RevRandy in little chunks -- but enough to begin to think differently
Lee there are things that seem "plane appropriate" linear time being one..it is a tool for here
WhiteTiger Lee :)
RevRandy but are they plane appropriate, or plane limiting
Lee it helps in navigating
Giulia I think those two views are correct, then the truth we may ask is that liner time exists for us..yes, then it exists or it doesn't, what's the truth....The truth is it doesn't exist, because is an illusion of the spirit, because is in a body that will end (die)..is the physical world then an illusion?
WHypernoodle navigating to where though?
Lee but have taken over ..now we serve time
Elissa a tool, yes, but as we operate as though it is a reality, how are we limiting our perceptions
glo the older you become, why does time seem to go by so much faster?
RevRandy aren't all illusions physical -- then the physical world would have to be illusionary (and illusory)
Giulia that's a point to REALLY ponder! lol
Lee i agree that it\\time, is one of the greatest imprisonments we accept here
RevRandy I find that moving, dancing, flying around all ideas to see them from as many vantage points as possible helps me to open perception
Elissa glo, Rikkity has an answer to that
RevRandy to doubt is as valuable as is to believe
Elissa i can't remember it right now lol
glo ty elissa
WHypernoodle For me time is moving faster because I am moving slower as I get older......I don't get as much done lol
Elissa o yes, it's because we realize how much more we want to do versus how much time we have left
WhiteTiger as ya stack up intervals (minutes, days, years) there becomes more to keep track of... ya begin glossing over the humdrum and familiar... all ya recollect are the hi points, so yer recall of that span is the same as a much shorter span when things were all new and fresh to you
RevRandy sort of a doppler effect of life
Elissa next question: "how much of perception is based on our concept of best reality"
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RevRandy hi amy
Elissa how goal-oriented are we in terms of our perceptions?
Amy hi randy
Elissa hi amy
Amy hi elissa
Amy hugs everyone
Lee i dont understand the question
Giulia I see that as the key to have clearer experiences
Elissa what is our concept of best reality? is it a compromise, a collective vision, etc.?
RevRandy do we only get what we think is possible? is that it the question?
Giulia you mean the goal of living?
Elissa or is it a vision of the future as it could be without trying to fill in the details
Elissa i think the question is asking us are we heading in the direction we really want to go
Giulia oh
Giulia hum
Lee yes, hum
Elissa or are our perceptions sidetracking us
RevRandy or will heading in that direction keep us from seeing alternative realities?
Giulia think we want to think that way! lol, and we really are heading some way so if it's the good way or not
Elissa "do we see clearly or with our eyes on the prize"
Giulia think we ( in Earth ) most act on eyes on the prize
RevRandy but if the prize is a creature of our perceptions, aren't we caught in a loop, in which we get what we want, but many not want what we get.
Elissa if the prize we seek is not more than we already know, then what will we end up with?
WhiteTiger hmmmmmm... "best reality", for me, would be most inclusive of "what is" and with deepest comprehension of it
Giulia nothing......
Giulia because we will not have a goal
Giulia and we will not act
Giulia we most have a goal.......
Elissa ok, and the last question Rikkity gave us: "is accuracy all it's cracked up to be, or is idealism a better standard"
kxkoda sometimes we do not know where to go.
Elissa yes, Keiko, and is there anything wrong with that? i don't think so.
WhiteTiger yes, if you are going to do linear time, you have to have a path through the progression
kxkoda me neither. something learned from that.
kxkoda Toward fullfillness, growth? move on to something new.
WhiteTiger can't make it from "here" to "there" unless ya have a notion of "there" to begin with
Elissa "something new" is what we need to perceive in order to move toward it... possibility
Elissa and how do we perceive possibility and operate in that way? big question!
Elissa i think it takes a radical openness to what the universe offers us
WhiteTiger imo, we have that perception because the "real" us is not doing linear time... what will be already is, and is known
Giulia idealism is never a better standard in my opinion, because is not based in reality, is a notion that doesn't exists...we can live in it (and believe lots of things about us or life), but it will not be a key to grow, because we need to see what we got to grow
Elissa so what do you see as the key to growth, giulia?
Giulia to try to see ourselves
Giulia and what we have , then we will see what needs to be done
Elissa well, folks, it's time to close... i will certainly be pondering all you've said for a long time! thank you all for being here tonight!!!
WHypernoodle Have a good week all :)
WHypernoodle and take care :)
kxkoda thank you everybody.
RevRandy next week -- Learning and Remembering
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa 0,4!Elissa rainbow.mid 4,0 :o)
WHypernoodle great to meet you kxkoda
RevRandy have a good week
WHypernoodle bye now
kxkoda Me too.
Giulia bye Elissa thank you :) great to meet you!
RevRandy bye all
kxkoda bye-bye.
Elissa nite giulia, you too :)
Giulia :)
RevRandy nite giulia
Giulia Learning ad remembering is my favorite subject!
Giulia :)
Giulia bye reverend
RevRandy good -- see you next week
Elissa remember to be here lol
Giulia nite
Giulia lol
Giulia I will :)
Giulia thank you
WhiteTiger nite folks :)
Elissa nite, tiger dude
RevRandy nite tiger -- keep them paws warm
WhiteTiger nice to meet ya, keiko, giulia :)
WhiteTiger thx for another fun one, RR, ELissa ;)
RevRandy yw - and ty
Giulia nice to meet you too WT
Giulia bye for now L&L
Session Close: Sun Oct 08 23:35:48 2000

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the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker,M.Ed., LPC, NCC
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