log091000

Session Start: Sun Sep 10 20:36:21 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Through Ego Toward Unity" 2,9Sunday 2,11September 10 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy . . .hi everyone
spiritsrpeople2 . . .hi Rev Randy
Elissa . . .everyone bring their ego? :)
RevRandy . . .my ego goes where I go
spiritsrpeople2 . . .never leave home without it
Elissa . . .good idea
Elissa . . .we'll be starting in about 5 minutes i guess.... soon as others drag their egos in here
spiritsrpeople2 . . .lol...ok
RevRandy . . .or their spirits ... whatever
Elissa . . .both hopefully
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Elissa . . .hey hyper!!! i'm glad you're here since its your topic lol
Hypernoodle . . .HI RR and Elissa :)
WhiteTiger . . .RR :)
Hypernoodle . . .lolol
Hypernoodle . . .I told Tiger we really should be here!
WhiteTiger . . .lol
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Elissa . . .hi dear fractious wt :) or is that fractured?
RevRandy . . .hey TF
Elissa . . .((((((TF))))))
spiritsrpeople2 . . .hi tf
TF88 . . .hi everyone
WhiteTiger . . .lol... fractious, moi?
Hypernoodle . . .Hi TF88
WhiteTiger . . .Elissa ;)
Elissa . . .nah
RevRandy . . .welcome to Spiritual Persistence
spiritsrpeople2 . . .thank you very much, i hope i'm not intruding
RevRandy . . .our weekly chat session to explore some of the wisdom that has been shared with us
RevRandy . . .before we begin, I think we need to run our intro -- Elissa
Elissa . . .no, srp, we love newcomers
Elissa . . .sure
Hypernoodle . . .cool......I have forgotten
WhiteTiger . . .ya can't intrude in an open forum ;)
spiritsrpeople2 . . .thanks
Elissa . . .srp, here's an explanation of who we are and what we do here:
Elissa . . .you FORGOT????? lol
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
* Hypernoodle thought it sounded nice
Hypernoodle . . .shhhhhh
Elissa . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . .(rofl hyper)
Elissa . . .I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
Elissa . . .a Masters degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
Elissa . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa . . .She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for the
Elissa . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . .Ponder.
Elissa . . .It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
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Elissa . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
spiritsrpeople2 . . .sounds right up my alley
Elissa . . .:)
Elissa . . .or email Randy (RevRandy@spiritualpersistence.com)
Elissa . . .or me (ebb@spiritualpersistence.com) any time.
Elissa . . .Please let us know
Elissa . . .if you would like to be on our email list. Thanks for coming...
Elissa . . .and again, welcome!
spiritsrpeople2 . . .ok sounds great! ty
Elissa . . .Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
Elissa . . .hi jem :)
WhiteTiger . . .why is there air?
Elissa . . .because, wt
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Hypernoodle . . .I think that is next week's topic Tiger
WhiteTiger . . .lol
RevRandy . . .because without it, there would only be vacuum, and who wants to vacuum all day long
Elissa . . .would you like that to be a future topic?
RevRandy . . .ok -
RevRandy . . .before we begin each session, we offer some simple words of invocation
RevRandy . . .I invite you to join in the spirit of these words
RevRandy . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . .And guided in all ways gracious. Namaste
TF88 . . .peace
Elissa . . .~amen
spiritsrpeople2 . . .amen
WhiteTiger . . .aho
RevRandy . . .A while ago, one of our chatters asked this question:
Elissa . . .(it was hyper)
RevRandy . . .Why can't ego and materialism be left out of our quest for oneness?
Hypernoodle . . .hey!
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .she did it she did it!!!!
Hypernoodle . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .I am the materialism.....Tiger is the ego
Elissa . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . .rofl
Elissa . . .ah shopping :)
Hypernoodle . . .naw.....hording
RevRandy . . .and tonight we are going to explore that question, using several of the Points to Ponder from SP
RevRandy . . .and some of our own ...
WhiteTiger . . .(hyper used to have both titles, but lost one recently)
RevRandy . . .hey, pay attention
Hypernoodle . . .I am!
RevRandy . . .I will not say anything more until there is order and quiet in here .......
Elissa . . .maybe we should have a test later :)
RevRandy . . .thump, thump, thump (foot tapping)
Elissa . . .sheeeesh
WhiteTiger . . .ptop quiz, as i were?
Elissa . . .talk about ego.... hmmmmm
Hypernoodle . . .lolol
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .good one, wt
Elissa . . .shall we allow randy to continue?
Elissa . . .let's take a vote
RevRandy . . .No
Hypernoodle . . .I am trying so hard to be quiet and you are asking questions!
jem . . .take the floor instead
Elissa . . .you can't vote
WhiteTiger . . .naw, he looks cool with the steam shooting out his ears ;)
Elissa . . .i'll take the ceiling
* Hypernoodle sat on the back row in church
jem . . .leave the walls
RevRandy . . .I'll take to the woods
Elissa . . .ok the walls can stay... for now :)
WhiteTiger . . .race ya, RR
TF88 . . .randy doesn't need our permission, he can choose for himself...but he'll have to take us as we are ;)
RevRandy . . .1,2,3 go
Elissa . . .it's gonna be one of those nights

RevRandy . . .O yes - it is
Hypernoodle . . .but you love us anyway :)
Elissa . . .hahahahahaha tf!
RevRandy . . .w'all love y'all
WhiteTiger . . .hey! no fair... you cheated on the count
jem . . .unconditionally
RevRandy . . .and so, in conclusion
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .lololol
Elissa . . .of course... sure... that's the ticket
jem . . .miss the first part
Elissa . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . .ok.. I'll make the supreme sacrifice
WhiteTiger . . .-- being good
Hypernoodle . . .I would still be going to church if they preached like this!
RevRandy . . .what, give up your oreos
* Elissa faints
RevRandy . . .let's start over .....
jem . . .Jem sneezes
Hypernoodle . . .intro again?
RevRandy . . .hello everybody
Elissa . . .i can't see straight i'm laughing so hard
RevRandy . . .welcome to SP -
Hypernoodle . . .a happy night!
Elissa . . .who are you?
RevRandy . . .we are glad you are here
RevRandy . . .please join us in the spirit of this invocation
jem . . .very glad
RevRandy . . .May we be connected to all things strange
jem . . .and weird
RevRandy . . .Protected from all things serious
Hypernoodle . . .I am already.....do I pass the test?
RevRandy . . .and guided in all ways humorous.
Elissa . . .and guided in all ways silly
WhiteTiger . . .talk about yer foregone conclusions.....
Elissa . . .you pass, hyper... it was a pre-test
RevRandy . . .anymoo
Hypernoodle . . .woohoo!
RevRandy . . .as I was saying ,.....
Elissa . . .well it was great being with you all tonight for this intriguing discussion
RevRandy . . .(watch this, I will get everyone's attention by quoting from Rikkity)
jem . . .very very deep
RevRandy . . . 0,2"The struggle to be ourselves is essential, and yes
RevRandy . . . 0,2--now hold on to your hats--
RevRandy . . . 0,2as we finally get our entity together and can merge on,
RevRandy . . . 0,2we will be born, so to speak,
RevRandy . . . 0,2through an already existing merged entity and will have to differentiate again,
RevRandy . . . 0,2or we may get tossed back here to merge and try again.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It is a tough thing for an entity, whether coming into being as a soul or moving on as the next step,
RevRandy . . . 0,2to have to merge to come into being, and then have to differentiate.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We just get to sense we are together, and then we get this differentiation task.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Not easy. Takes a number of tries to learn it all. But hey, we've got all the time in the world.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"It's having to know both these things:
RevRandy . . . 0,2'I am me' and 'I am not you.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2And we finally become an entity--at any level--when we can say,
RevRandy . . . 0,2'I am me' without reference to 'not you.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2Then we are ripe for merging.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We are pure.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We are essentially 'us.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2Any combination before that would be contaminated;
RevRandy . . . 0,2we would form an entity not only of the positive 'us' elements,
RevRandy . . . 0,2but also the negative 'not you' elements.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Entities are only positive combinations if they are to be sustainable." (3/23/96 - V#14)
RevRandy . . .Ok -
RevRandy . . .here is a place to start from -
jem . . .Sustained
RevRandy . . .(always one editor in the crowd)
Elissa . . .that's the word Rikkity gave us, jem
jem . . .I object
Elissa . . .(usual disclaimer)
Elissa . . .sorry you're overruled by a higher authority lol
WhiteTiger . . .lol
RevRandy . . .and this notion that there is a reason for our sense of ego
jem . . .order order in the courtroom
jem . . .I'll have a hot dog
RevRandy . . .(ham on rye, hold the mayo)
WhiteTiger . . .ok... I'd like to order a large pepperoni, please
jem . . .sorry we're out of unicorns
TF88 . . .the phrase "I am me without reference to not you" is fabulous
* Elissa writes down the orders and gives them to srp along with $1 tip
Hypernoodle . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .poor srp
spiritsrpeople2 . . .gee thanks
Hypernoodle . . .I'll drive if you'll order
spiritsrpeople2 . . .lol
Elissa . . .newbies have to be initiated
RevRandy . . .Isn't it TF -- but what I think about is the process of getting there too
TF88 . . .It really sums up the goal of how to connect without losing sense of self
Elissa . . .i like that, too, TF... it really speaks to the developmental process
RevRandy . . .but I have a sense that we need to try it the other way before we learn how to do it this way
WhiteTiger . . .inclusionary rule...
RevRandy . . .and through this experience of ego as defined as "other than" we begin to glimpse the possibility of the ego to be defined as "this"
jem . . .in the end is the beginning
RevRandy . . .which begins to offer up one of the things I wanted to suggest tonight
Elissa . . .i think about those who aren't evolved, and their primary focus on what others do and think and say, etc., etc.
RevRandy . . .that we have to move through certain things, like ego, in order to fully come to a place beyond them
WhiteTiger . . ."move through"... good phrase
RevRandy . . .and it seems to me that ego is one of those things
jem . . .climb the ladder
RevRandy . . .at this stage of development, in this level of spiritual complexity
RevRandy . . .we are beset with the task of finding a way to have identity
RevRandy . . .and to learn (and hopefully remember) how to do that without it being referential to others
RevRandy . . .but in this piece from Rikkity there is also the notion that we will not be wholly ourselves
jem . . .once you know how it's so easy
RevRandy . . .until we have this sense of self as self, not as opposite of other
Elissa . . .and the more we learn how to differentiate--from parents, for example--the better we get at being who we are without reference to anyone else
WhiteTiger . . .have to grasp the relationship to self before knowing how to relate outside
jem . . .right
jem . . .know thyself
RevRandy . . .WT - most people seem to do it the other way around ... try to relate to others to find self
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WhiteTiger . . .don't work worth a spit though, does it?
Elissa . . .you have to begin there
jem . . .nah
RevRandy . . .we mistake our social nature for the sign that our definitions must come from outside
Elissa . . .hi tracy :)
RevRandy . . .when our social nature is a tool, not an answer
RevRandy . . .and a tool for the larger expression of self, not the loss of self
Tracy . . .Hi room
RevRandy . . .let me run that one by us all again, and see what y'all see in it:
WhiteTiger . . ."mistake" is right... lacking perfect telepathy, all definitions are personal
RevRandy . . . 0,2"The struggle to be ourselves is essential, and yes
RevRandy . . . 0,2--now hold on to your hats--
RevRandy . . . 0,2as we finally get our entity together and can merge on,
RevRandy . . . 0,2we will be born, so to speak,
RevRandy . . . 0,2through an already existing merged entity and will have to differentiate again,
RevRandy . . . 0,2or we may get tossed back here to merge and try again.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It is a tough thing for an entity, whether coming into being as a soul or moving on as the next step,
RevRandy . . . 0,2to have to merge to come into being, and then have to differentiate.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We just get to sense we are together, and then we get this differentiation task.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Not easy. Takes a number of tries to learn it all. But hey, we've got all the time in the world.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"It's having to know both these things:
RevRandy . . . 0,2'I am me' and 'I am not you.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2And we finally become an entity--at any level--when we can say,
RevRandy . . . 0,2'I am me' without reference to 'not you.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2Then we are ripe for merging.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We are pure.
jem . . .in other words get it right the first time
RevRandy . . . 0,2We are essentially 'us.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2Any combination before that would be contaminated;
RevRandy . . . 0,2we would form an entity not only of the positive 'us' elements,
RevRandy . . . 0,2but also the negative 'not you' elements.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Entities are only positive combinations if they are to be sustainable." (3/23/96 - V#14)
jem . . .sustained
spiritsrpeople2 . . .lol
TF88 . . .hahaha
Elissa . . .now jem, that's what Jesus did... but not many others are capable of that
jem . . .order in the courtroom
Elissa . . .(getting it right the first time i mean)
jem . . .what did he do?
RevRandy . . .how do you feel about renewable ... is it really renewed?
jem . . .Ohhhh
Tracy . . .Are we asking question ?
Elissa . . .can you imagine being so sure of your own identity that you never felt the need to say "i'm NOT"?
Elissa . . .sure tracy
RevRandy . . .well, let me slip another Point to Ponder in here
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Life is not about everyone learning and remembering the same stuff.
RevRandy . . . 0,2That's one of the big mistakes of the big religions.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Suppose that all matter in your world was made of the same subatomic particles.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Well it is, ha, but not in the same way.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Hydrogen is different from helium and can't make you talk like Mickey.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But if all matter were composed all the same, we'd have just one whatever. So too with people and spirits and s h i t.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"In order for our larger entities to become realized we need differing elements,
RevRandy . . . 0,2or spirits if you will--and o yes, you will.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, for your productive participation in that next reality as an entity,
RevRandy . . . 0,2you need to become who you are meant or capable of being.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Each life has its own shape, and each go-around its own role, in filling out or filing down.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If you follow another's path it may take you part of the way you need to go,
RevRandy . . . 0,2but it can't take you all the way.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Any single path is insufficient to the complexities.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We are right back to that old joke about 'being you, everyone else is taken.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2And if you make yourself someone else,
RevRandy . . . 0,2then you can't fit into your place in the growing complexity of existence.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Each must find what she or he or it must learn and remember. That's all. No mass movements.
RevRandy . . . 0
RevRandy . . . 0,2"And karma is not the same.
RevRandy . . . 0,2That's about becoming you in differentiation.
RevRandy . . . 0,2This is about becoming you into integration.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's either you have to find yourself to lose yourself and/or lose yourself to find yourself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Neither is the end; you will find yourself and lose yourself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's all the same. For, when you finally find fulfillment and knowledge of self,
RevRandy . . . 0,2 0,2the self no longer matters for you move on into a new plane of being--and on and on and on and on and on.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2Amazing." (3/13/97 - Y#12)
jem . . .I'm lost,
WhiteTiger . . .lol... ya did it again, posted one I mostly agree with and shot down all my wisecracks
RevRandy . . .sorry WT
Elissa . . .i'm not sorry
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WhiteTiger . . .that's yer opinion, Elissa ;)
WhiteTiger . . .hi dodo
RevRandy . . .hi dodo
Hypernoodle . . .Hi dodo
jem . . .love never has to say you're sorry
dodo . . .hi whitetiger, revrandy, hypernoodle
Hypernoodle . . .this is what we were talking about today, Tiger
dodo . . .everyone
Hypernoodle . . .the path
RevRandy . . .in the idea of a diversity of learnings and rememberings
jem . . .many many paths
RevRandy . . .is the notions that there must be some sense of different selves
Elissa . . .but consider what that means! we are ALL unique and non-interchangeable!!! that's a lot of diverse people!!!
RevRandy . . .on different paths
Elissa . . .hey dodo :)
dodo . . .hey elissa :o)
RevRandy . . .which requires a recognition of those selves
RevRandy . . .and honoring of those selves
jem . . .we are all unique and in that way we are the same
RevRandy . . .and in that sense, a value to the idea of ego
WhiteTiger . . .but consider some of the implications of the earlier ptops, Elissa, and we ARE all interchangeable
jem . . .we are connected
RevRandy . . .I don't think interchangeable
Elissa . . .in what sense, wt?
WhiteTiger . . .sure jem, but what isn't, if ya look deep enough?
RevRandy . . .if it were not connected, we would not know about it
jem . . .cloning will make us interchangeable
Elissa . . .can't clone a soul
RevRandy . . .yep - to what Elissa just said
WhiteTiger . . .well Elissa... if "self is to become purely inclusionary, then in it's more advanced stages, what is outside, to be "not me"?
jem . . .will clones have different souls?
RevRandy . . .if we mistake the physical for the spiritual
RevRandy . . .which is the cloning argument
Elissa . . .right, wt, but we ain't there yet :)
Elissa . . .sure jem... like twins
jem . . .twins have different souls, right
Elissa . . .right
WhiteTiger . . .well, yeah, but just cuz I'm makin mud pies, don't mean I can't eye the cheesecake
RevRandy . . .what if you had someone cloned from a living person .... how could the same spirit inhabit both? What would the implications of that be for spiritual insight?
jem . . .I was very worried about that
jem . . .could get very complicated
Elissa . . .don't talk cheesecake to me tonight, wt... i'm on a diet :(
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RevRandy . . .if we think of spiritual entities as being the unique ones, then the physical issues of cloning are moot
Hypernoodle . . .eewwwww......diet
Elissa . . .hey jaye :)
jaye . . .hi everyone
RevRandy . . .hi jaye
WhiteTiger . . .well, imo, and based on personal experience, the inhabitant of the bod is not determined by the bod itself... ergo, clone ain't the same person
RevRandy . . .agree WT
jem . . .spiritual entities are primary
RevRandy . . .you could take a whole slew of cloned bodies, and the experiences and spirits of each would be different
RevRandy . . .or else the whole notion of spirit is up for grabs
jem . . .frightening
RevRandy . . .if ego does not matter, then in a situation where many people were present, all would have the same understandings and learnings ... but they don't
WhiteTiger . . .say what? ya lost me with that one
RevRandy . . .it is through the interpretive lens of our self that we find that which we need to learn and remember
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmm
RevRandy . . .OK --- say you have 100 people in a room (crowded isn't it) and something happens
RevRandy . . .unless some sense of separate selves exists (ego) then all would have the same reaction to and interaction with what happened
jem . . .like?
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RevRandy . . .say that you were in a crowd in Jerusalem, say about .... 2000 years ago
jem . . .we all react differently
RevRandy . . .and suddenly there was this man turning over tables
spiritsrpeople2 . . .hi peach
Peach . . .Hi
Elissa . . .hi peach :)
WhiteTiger . . .dunno that I can go with that one.. simply having multiple viewpoints from being in different places in the room will make subtle differences
RevRandy . . .your sense of "you" (the ego) would help to shape what you saw, what you learned, what you remembered
jem . . .someone might think he was nuts
RevRandy . . .sure, your physical perspective would have an effect, but so would your inner perspective
Elissa . . .is the ego our sense of self, or is it our sense of physical self???
jem . . .another might think he was angry
jem . . .another might help him turn over the tables
Elissa . . .jem sees things from many perspectives lol
TF88 . . .and another might notice the tables were the color orange
RevRandy . . .and a blind person might only think about noise
jem . . .yes, and yes but maybe no
RevRandy . . .I think of ego being about the whole self, a sense of the whole being of a person
RevRandy . . .a statement of "I am"
RevRandy . . .in all of the dimensions
RevRandy . . .and as we learn more about ourselves, the more dimensions we come to hold within that sense of self
jem . . .started out with one egg and it got scrambled
Elissa . . .i think of it more in a physical sense... my physical identity, coping mechanisms, etc.
WhiteTiger . . .I tend toward the notion, based on observations, that ego, as most folks use the word, is the part that fears
Elissa . . .ego to me is the part that deals with physical reality
WhiteTiger . . .that's what I said, Elissa ;)
RevRandy . . .then what do you call the part that deals with spiritual reality?
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .o ok wt :) very insightful of you
Hypernoodle . . .physical reality as in how we live....how we see ourselves and our place in life?
spiritsrpeople2 . . .i call it your soul randy
RevRandy . . .but I do not see a dualism between the two ... while I am physical, the two intertwine
Elissa . . .i call it Fred, randy
RevRandy . . .but in your sleep you call it ....
WhiteTiger . . .got two words for it RR... spirit is the essence of self without external referent... soul is the aspect of spirit that interfaces with externals
Elissa . . .physical reality as in our dealing with time, space, physical limitations
Elissa . . .needs
RevRandy . . .and I see them all as facets, aspects, of the same things - a sense of identity
Elissa . . .well, hyper it's your question... what does ego mean to you?
Hypernoodle . . .the ego I was referring to is the one that pushes people to fight for the top slot instead of working in harmony
Elissa . . .that which separates us?
spiritsrpeople2 . . .thats what i think of ego as, something not good for all, but for the one
RevRandy . . .so, it is a spirit of differentiation, which could be physical, spiritual, etc
Hypernoodle . . .that which makes it necessary to be the best for fear of not being recognized as important
Hypernoodle . . .right srp2
RevRandy . . .ok - then I would ask the question further
RevRandy . . .is that sense of ego something to be avoided, or something to be learned through, and moved through?
TF88 . . .a tool for learning perhaps
Hypernoodle . . .I think learning
RevRandy . . .((((I am also noticing that it is 10, and we need a 10 minute break ))))
Hypernoodle . . .I have a problem with this notion of moving through stuff
RevRandy . . .Or, at least I do!
RevRandy . . .keep on talking as you will ....
spiritsrpeople2 . . .i always thought of my ego, like pride was something that no one else could see, so i never really pay too much attention to it
*** RevRandy is now known as RevRandybrb
* WhiteTiger breaks five pairs of minutes... how's that?
Elissa . . .hyper, i will speak to something about that after the break
Hypernoodle . . .okie dokie :)
Elissa . . .(or try to lol)
Elissa . . .bbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkk
*** Elissa is now known as Elissabrb
*** RevRandybrb is now known as RevRandy
Hypernoodle . . .that was a short 10 minutes
RevRandy . . .I am still broken, but I am coming back together
WhiteTiger . . .geritol works wonders ;)
Hypernoodle . . .lol
RevRandy . . .I have a very stiff shoulder tonight and it is making typing harder than usual
RevRandy . . .I must have pounded the pulpit too hard this morning
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .lol....trying to wake them up or really into the lesson?
* WhiteTiger puts RR on the christmas list for a gavel
Hypernoodle . . .lol
RevRandy . . .I was preaching on the connection between self and community, in contrast to the usual notion of a tension between individuals and society
RevRandy . . .forget the gavel - give me a water pistol
Hypernoodle . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . .lol
RevRandy . . .(would give a whole new notion to holy water)
Hypernoodle . . .oooooo
WhiteTiger . . .ammended to "super-soake"
RevRandy . . .OK
*** Elissabrb is now known as Elissa
RevRandy . . .shhh - she is coming back -- no more talking about her
Hypernoodle . . .think she doesn't know how to scroll?
Elissa . . .hahaha i can scroll up
WhiteTiger . . .aw, and it was just getting to the good parts!
RevRandy . . .no - we delete it all
RevRandy . . .have to read between the lines
RevRandy . . .OK - Elissa - you were about to say .....
spiritsrpeople2 . . .well i must be going, thank you all for being so kind
Elissa . . .so, here's a nice model to help you conceptualize the need to "move through"
spiritsrpeople2 . . .take care everyone
Hypernoodle . . .take care srp2
TF88 . . .night srp
RevRandy . . .come back again --- it is not always this crazy in here
Elissa . . .ok srp... glad you came
WhiteTiger . . .nite srp
Elissa . . .it's called Maslow's Hierarchy
Elissa . . .anyone know it?
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RevRandy . . .I do
WhiteTiger . . .yes
Hypernoodle . . .have heard of it....don't remember where
* bettyb : Hello everyone!
Hypernoodle . . .must have been that psychology course?
RevRandy . . .hi
Elissa . . .ok, here it is and how it relates to what we're talking about:
Elissa . . .if you can, visualize a triangle, or pyramid
Hypernoodle . . .ok
Elissa . . .at the base of the triangle is survival needs....
Elissa . . .food, shelter, water, etc.
Hypernoodle . . .right
Elissa . . .you need to have those needs met before you can go any further....
Elissa . . .someone who is starving cannot work on their spiritual issues....
Elissa . . .next comes safety, security...
Elissa . . .the next level is belonging, or love...
Elissa . . .next is self-esteem
Elissa . . .next highest is what we call self-actualization,
Elissa . . .which is your personal fulfillment and psychological maturity...
Elissa . . .only when those needs or processes are dealt with and satisfied
Elissa . . .can we get to the highest level,
Elissa . . .which is self-transcendence
Elissa . . .in other words, in counseling,
Elissa . . .if someone comes to me dealing with the loss of their home in a fire
Elissa . . .and their kids are starving and their
Elissa . . .husband is abusive,
Elissa . . .they are not going to be listening to me--
Elissa . . .or hearing me--
Elissa . . .if i start asking them to contemplate the meaning of their life
Elissa . . .does that make it clearer?
Hypernoodle . . .I remember all that from college and understand it
Hypernoodle . . .but that is not how I picture "moving through" something
Hypernoodle . . .maybe semantics?
WhiteTiger . . .odd thought just popped in... is this a truism, or just a reflection of the nature of those who seek counseling for their probs?
dodo . . .elissa, i was thinking about this problem last night, blockage because of emotions/depression and how I could fix, what do u suggest
Elissa . . .we need to move through and deal with and recognize basic needs--or ego needs--before we can get beyond them
Hypernoodle . . .okay....got it
Elissa . . .ok... whew :)
Hypernoodle . . .just a different use of the word :)
RevRandy . . .if we attempt to get to the higher needs without dealing with these first, we won't get anywhere other than frustrated
Hypernoodle . . .agree
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Elissa . . .dodo, i'd have to know your specific situation
WhiteTiger . . .and of course, I tend to disagree LOL
dodo . . .k
Hypernoodle . . .of course!
Elissa . . .hey jackie :)
Hypernoodle . . .Hi Jackie :)
RevRandy . . .what if we take that model, and expand it to take more levels of spiritual existence?
WhiteTiger . . .howdy jackie
Jackie . . .hi everyone
RevRandy . . .hey Jackie - good to see you
Jackie . . .I'll try to catch up on the topic
RevRandy . . .and in that model across several levels of spiritual complexity, this level (wherein we are physical beings)
RevRandy . . .is about dealing with issues like ego, materialism, physical being?
RevRandy . . .we might like to be dealing with other things
RevRandy . . .but until we deal with these, we won't get anywhere other than frustrated either
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RevRandy . . .So, rather than see ego and materialism as impediments to us, to see them as part of our path to be dealt with
RevRandy . . .remember, the stone that blocks our way can, through work, become a step on which we move on
Elissa . . .and if we try to go around it or avoid what we need to deal with, what happens?
RevRandy . . .let me slip in another PtoP here:
RevRandy . . .ok - let's stay with that
Hypernoodle . . .It reappears on the other side :)
WhiteTiger . . .lol... ya fall off the edge then and have to climb all the way back up
Elissa . . .in some form, yes
TF88 . . .we lug that darn stone with us until we DO choose to deal with it
RevRandy . . .in a way yes
Elissa . . .lol
RevRandy . . .all of the above
WhiteTiger . . .all possibilities are valid ;)
RevRandy . . .it remains a stone, not a step, and we have not learned from it and through it and through our dealing with it
Elissa . . .and then we get angry, or feel guilty for having to deal with it, or deny it, etc., etc., etc.
TF88 . . .well...I don't think we ever go backwards
RevRandy . . .but it may feel like we are
TF88 . . .yes, big difference though
RevRandy . . .yes, in the long range, but in the short range that feeling can be very daunting
TF88 . . .yes very much so
WhiteTiger . . .depends what yer using to measure movement, doesn't it, as to whether it's in a given direction?
RevRandy . . .which is more important, aim or motion
Elissa . . .another PtoP that fits here, RR?
Elissa . . .hi vancouver :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2"When we think about the process of coming together in ever-more complex ways,
RevRandy . . . 0,2one might be tempted to ask after the purpose of it all. Tsk tsk tsk.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's not about a destination, it's about an infinite process.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If you seek the end you'll miss the middle, which is the secret.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Those who focus on beginnings or ends--on where they're coming from or going to--miss the journey.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Being on our way is meaning enough. If one is part of the ultimate process of being, who needs ultimate meaning;
RevRandy . . . 0,2it's contained in everything that already is.
RevRandy . . . 0,2'If not now, when.' Yes, but what's the point. No point.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It takes trust, and not being a short-timer.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And we actually have fewer short-timers now than before. Mongol hordes were all first-timers." (3/17/97 - V#27)
Elissa . . .mongol hordes were all ego lol
Hypernoodle . . .What is a first-timer?
RevRandy . . .so often it gets tempting to think about it all in ultimate terms -- sort of a spiritual "Are we there yet?"
RevRandy . . .and miss the journey - even the journey in ego land
dodo . . .that is a frustrating way of thought
Elissa . . .someone who is incarnating for the first time
Hypernoodle . . .ahh....thanks
Elissa . . .yw
Elissa . . .lol i like that "are we there yet"
Elissa . . .what is frustrating about it, dodo?
dodo . . .well wishing to be enlightened so to speak and striving only for that, cause its not possible
dodo . . .i am not so educated as u folk in this matter sorry
Elissa . . .o yes
* Hypernoodle wonders if dodo notices how many questions she asks?
RevRandy . . .because all the elements of enlightenment are already and always contained in all the level of existence
Elissa . . .please don't apologize... we like to hear different points of view
dodo . . .:o)
dodo . . .ty
Hypernoodle . . .I have lots of questions, dodo
WhiteTiger . . .secret dodo... nobody wearing one of these meat machines is educated in thee matters... we're all guessing to suit ourselves ;)
Hypernoodle . . .true Tiger
dodo . . .cool
TF88 . . .we become more enlightened with each moment...every one of us
RevRandy . . .if we had all the answers, well, we would not still be at this level of spiritual complexity, but would be somewhere else, asking other questions
Elissa . . .what we know is necessarily translated through our imperfect physical beings
WhiteTiger . . .good one, Elissa :)
Elissa . . .ty, sir wt :)
Hypernoodle . . .lol....and I was thinking "I love it when ya'll use big words."
Elissa . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . .and once we get past the physical limits, we got the spiritual ones to cope with ;)
RevRandy . . . 0,2"The trick is to give up specific lives
RevRandy . . . 0,2but keep the accumulating insights of all lives and the meaning discovered between lives.
RevRandy . . . 0,2At some point one gets enough meaning and understanding that one does not need to go back,
RevRandy . . . 0,2but can go forward to be a healthy part of a larger entity--like Atoms-In-Training (A.I.T.s).
RevRandy . . . 0,2When you are ready to fit in the spiritual molecule you will.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Then you become an M.I.T. (Molecule-In-Training). We are climbing Jacob's Ladder, so to speak." (1/13
Elissa . . .o yes! *sigh*
RevRandy . . .it is not about achieving, but about moving on ... to new challenges and new insights
Elissa . . .perpetual motion, as it were
RevRandy . . .retaining all that we have found, learned and remembered along the way
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Elissa . . .uh oh
WhiteTiger . . .weird thought... anyone know what a jacob's ladder IS?
dodo . . .if the soul knows everything and the mind is trying to know soul, but the mind/personality is not the soul, then what is the point, if the soul already is perfect, is it just about soul wanting new experiences
dodo . . .eeeks, does that make sense
RevRandy . . .there are several versions -- one is a ladder into heaven, another an electrical device with two wires with a spark between them, another is a stretch of steeply rising rack railroad track
WhiteTiger . . .it's that thing in all the old frankenstein laboratories... with the spark that climbs up the gap between the two wires...
Elissa . . .according to Rikkity, the soul is not--and never will be-- "perfect"...
Elissa . . .perfection implies a static, finished state of being
WhiteTiger . . .and as the spark reaches the top, it poofs out.....
dodo . . .oh?
Elissa . . .and we are never static or finished, dodo
dodo . . .k
dodo . . .yes
Elissa . . .always growing, learning, becoming
dodo . . .and who is rikkity, please
Elissa . . .Rikkity is our daughter in spirit who is in communication with us
dodo . . .oh wonderful
dodo . . .ty
Elissa . . .it is :)
RevRandy . . .and it is even awesome at times!
dodo . . .:o)
RevRandy . . .well, in this spirit (no pun intended), some more words from Rikkity growing on this topic:
Elissa . . .so, we poof out wt in a sense... we become someone other than what we are
RevRandy . . . 0,2"So, here goes. Pay attention. There'll be a test.
RevRandy . . . 0,2What is the purpose of all this, you ask. I will tell you.
RevRandy . . . 0,2There is none, and yet there is one.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's about the process we are in, ever becoming and being.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Each level seems to have its purpose, but overall not really.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"One could say the purpose is to prepare to move on.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Well maybe, but the alternative is to cease being in that way,
RevRandy . . . 0,2so if there is no choice is there a purpose. I think not.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But we do perceive purpose at every moment of every level--not because it's there,
RevRandy . . . 0,2but because we want it to be there.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But overall there is a grander notion.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Whitman said it was to be on the road: 'Afoot and light-hearted I take to the road.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2Buddha spoke of the path, Jesus of the way.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You see, it is about being in the stream, not where the stream is going.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"People keep asking 'why' and 'where to,' but the question is more simple:
RevRandy . . . 0,2'am I?' meaning that 'am I in the process of being'--
RevRandy . . . 0,2not having been or going to be, but being.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If there is a grand purpose to all, it will be in the all-ness that becomes and is one ultimately.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It will be the sum of all the processes, not the product of the processes.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It is contained in the act of being, not created by being or doing.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"So now the test: A train leaves New York at 1pm.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Another leaves Washington at 2pm.
RevRandy . . . 0,2What train is the right one.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's the one you're on.
RevRandy . . . 0,2All others don't matter; their destinations and speed and accommodations are irrelevant.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's the train or plane or life you're on that counts;
RevRandy . . . 0,2and it's the journey and the acquaintances and learnings and rememberings that count.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's the adding to the sum total that counts. Ponder that." (11/18/96 - V#23)
Elissa . . ."It is contained in the act of being" awesome thought to ponder, i think
TF88 . . .Personally, I like "It's the one you're on." :)
RevRandy . . .and "It will be the sum of all the processes, not the product of the processes."
Elissa . . .i like that one too... and also
RevRandy . . .yep, TF -
Elissa . . . "It's the adding to the sum total that counts."
* VancouverBC Hi, I am completely ignorance about this. I am just looking for an answer. My grilfriend was murdered in April. I think revenge but I am afraid I will not be able to see her again because of it. Is that true?
Elissa . . .very possibly, vancouver
RevRandy . . .Would revenge give her back to you?
Elissa . . .revenge is not necessary... the murderer will get what he deserves
Elissa . . .right now you may be focusing on your anger to help you feel in control
RevRandy . . .but all the energy you would invest in revenge is actually being given to the murderer by your focus there
RevRandy . . .I feel the need to share some of my personal story here
RevRandy . . .When Rikkity was killed
Elissa . . .good idea
* VancouverBC Ok. So no revenge but if I take my own life will I see her.
RevRandy . . .by that drunk driver
Elissa . . .wait randy
Elissa . . .vancouver, i had that same thought and desire when my daughter was killed by a drunk driver...
Elissa . . .and what she told me was that if i took my own life, i would not find her...
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WhiteTiger . . .BC- that makes more problems... it never solves them
Hypernoodle . . .as did I at the time of my love's death
Elissa . . .i would not be able to be with her because i would have different lessons to learn and deal with
Elissa . . .the best way you can be sure to see her again is if you use your time here while alive to become a better, stronger person...
Elissa . . .use this experience and deal with what it can help you learn... giving up or giving in is not the answer
* VancouverBC Elissa - I didn't need this to be a better or stronger person. I was already. We both leave the way it supposed to be. I don't understand.
Hypernoodle . . .I thought I was a strong person. I found out there are many different kinds of strength
Elissa . . .understand that your life is about you, not about her... if you stop your own journey to try to find her it won't work
* VancouverBC Elissa - She loved animals, we give toys to needies kids etc... what else do we have to do.
WhiteTiger . . .all of us can be better than what we are...
Elissa . . .and please consider grief counseling, vancouver... you can't get through something like this alone
RevRandy . . .amen to that!
* VancouverBC I understand we all can get better, don't get me wrong. But what about people that are bad. They seemed to have a better life.
TF88 . . .after my relative was murdered he communicated to his family that he was supposed to go at that time.
Elissa . . .randy, you want to talk now? :)
RevRandy . . .sure, as I was saying, after Rikkity died, I was very intent on revenge
RevRandy . . .I sat in the court room glaring at the man who did it
* VancouverBC Elissa - I have the prelim, the trial etc... to go through... no counselling will help
RevRandy . . .but I kept finding that I went away exhausted by trying to get relief through hurting him
Elissa . . .let's hear what the rev has to say, van
WhiteTiger . . ."seemed" is the operative word there BC... what those "bad" folks live with inside in order to "live well" by social standards isn't worth the price they pay
Hypernoodle . . .true RR......it only uses up your own energy feeding the other
RevRandy . . .finally I decided that if I left my future, my happiness, my continuing connection to Rikkity up to his
RevRandy . . ."getting his"
RevRandy . . .I was investing in the wrong direction.
RevRandy . . .SInce then, through Rikkity's help, I have come to see that I have the power to shape my reaction to things,
RevRandy . . .and that when I focus away from what I know to be my own sense of good, I rob myself of what might be
WhiteTiger . . .:)) the one and only power we have... the power over self
Elissa . . .yep
RevRandy . . .If someone is truly "evil" while they might seem to have a good time in life, in the end, in the spiritual evolution of things, they will not have a future, so to speak
RevRandy . . .I suspect that some of the items at our website on both "energy" and "grief, death, and the afterlife" might be helpful to you
* VancouverBC Rev - I just found out about this site yesterday. I hope you are right. Still I miss her so much.
Elissa . . .http://www.spiritualpersistence.com/energy.htm
Elissa . . .http://www.spiritualpersistence.com/gda.htm
RevRandy . . .of course you miss her! all of us here know that utter feeling of loss
Elissa . . .of course you do ((((((vancouver)))))))
Elissa . . .it must have been a terrible shock
* VancouverBC It likes a dream. Almost impossible. I felt like a wuss at the prelim not hitting this guy. I was to feet from him.
Elissa . . .we understand that feeling
Elissa . . .but know that he will suffer for what he did... one way or the other... and most likely both
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* VancouverBC So are you saying that is. Move on .. that what life is about. It suck to me ... sorry for the word.
Elissa . . .so, hyper, did we help you with your question tonight?
Hypernoodle . . .lolol......keep on pluggin
Elissa . . .:)
RevRandy . . .no Vancouver - by not hitting him, you were right - you did not let his angry self take over yours.
Elissa . . .friends, it seems we're at the end of our time tonight... any last questions or comments?
RevRandy . . .yep - we need to close
WhiteTiger . . .some questions resemble the path itself... in that they are processes, not goals and yer never quite "there yet"
Elissa . . .ty :)
Elissa . . .excellent point, wt
Hypernoodle . . .A friend quoted me in a book she wrote. She called an was upset that she felt she was not achieving enough with enough people. I told her in a brick road, you can only lay one brick at a time. So I guess that is what I have to work on too....one brick at a time.
RevRandy . . .but to all of you who are, like us, struggling with making meaning out of life's realities (which at times do suck), please have hope -- that on the other side of anything, there can still be meaning
Elissa . . .yep... it takes some patience... and acceptance of where you are
RevRandy . . .join us again next Sunday - when we will be discussing some points on spiritual energy
WhiteTiger . . .lol... ya get lemons, make lemonaid
Elissa . . .and understanding that where you are is the point :)
Hypernoodle . . .take care, all :)
Elissa . . .nite and thanks for the topic :)
* VancouverBC Bye ty
* WhiteTiger waits for more homilies ;)
TF88 . . .night everyone
Elissa . . .and thank all of you for being here tonight
TF88 . . .thanks R & E
Hypernoodle . . .ttfn :)
Jackie . . .night all
RevRandy . . .night to all, and hugs to (((((((((((all)))))))))))))))))
Elissa . . .here's the rainbow song to light your way
Marie1 . . .{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Rev and Elissa}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
WhiteTiger . . .nite Elissa, R :) thx for another good one
Elissa . . .hey ((((((((((marie)))))))))) in a foreign land
Elissa . . .thank you, wt
Elissa . . .see you next week!
Elissa . . .. . .love you, dear marie, nite *kiss*
Session Close: Sun Sep 10 23:10:19 2000