08/27/2000 - TRUST, FAITH, AND HOPE

Session Start: Sun Aug 27 20:33:44 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Trust, Faith, and Hope" 2,9Sunday 2,11August 27 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '
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o.oElissa.o. . . i'm here :) hi boobooo and the infamous tiger dude
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . howdy Elissa :)
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o.oElissa.o. . . hi jackie :)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . hi jackie
o.oJackie.o. . . hi everyone
o.ojsp.o. . . hi jackie :)
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o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((((((hanna))))))))))))
o.ojsp.o. . . hi hanna :)
o.oHanna.o. . . hey guys! :)
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . hello Hanna!!!!!!
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . evenin hanna, atracy
o.oHanna.o. . . why thankeee :)
o.ojsp.o. . . hi jj :)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . jj :)
o.ojj.o. . . hello everyone
o.oElissa.o. . . hi amy
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o.oHanna.o. . . And YOU Rev, as well :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . hey TF
o.oATracyin_FL.o. . . 6hello
o.ojsp.o. . . hi TF!
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . TF ;)
o.oTF88.o. . . hi all :)
o.oamy.o. . . hi elissa
o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((TF))))))
o.oAtracyin_FL.o. . . 6Hi room its my first time here can someone tell me about the meeting tonight
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . this is a discussion forum
o.oRevRandy.o. . . AT -we will explain all in just a few minutes -- we sort of get started by about 10 after the hour
o.ojsp.o. . . lots a good helpful things to think about AT
o.oTF88.o. . . {{{{E}}}
o.oATracyin_FL.o. . . JSP to think about??
o.ojsp.o. . . you'll feel better at the end of our time together than you could have imagined at the outset :) -- good people here, sharing wonderful ideas and things to ponder :D
o.oTF88.o. . . hope you brought your thinking cap AT ;)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . and not an inconsiderable amount of shananigans and hijinks, too ;)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . WT - what hijinks ????
o.oElissa.o. . . lol shenanigans? nah, not HERE lol
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . *innocent look*
o.ojsp.o. . . snirk
o.ojsp.o. . . LOL
* jsp winks at wt
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Hey, folks, i think it is time to get started.
o.oElissa.o. . . ok, RR
o.oElissa.o. . . i'm ready when you are
o.oRevRandy.o. . . OK - hello and welcome to Spiritual Persistence
o.oElissa.o. . . welcome!
o.oRevRandy.o. . . it is, as always, good to see your nicks on the list, and know we are connecting
o.oRevRandy.o. . . tonight, if either Elissa or I suddenly leave, it is because we are each in our own storms zones,
o.ojsp.o. . . weatherwize, literally speaking.... of course
o.oElissa.o. . . any one of you can take over
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I am in Harrisburg, PA (on the road) connecting via one of those free servers, so I may suddenly disappear from that
o.oElissa.o. . . yes jsp :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but we will try to stay here.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . (In VA and PA it is lightning time)
o.ojsp.o. . . (epitomizing the "calm in the midst of the storm"... )
o.oRevRandy.o. . . We try
o.oElissa.o. . . think positive
o.oElissa.o. . . sooooooo... shall i begin with the intro for those of you who are new here?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . sure -- good idea
o.oATracyin_FL.o. . . sure :)
o.oElissa.o. . . ok then!
o.oElissa.o. . . RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
o.oElissa.o. . . almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
o.oElissa.o. . . Williamsburg, VA.
o.oElissa.o. . . I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
o.oElissa.o. . . a Masters degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
o.oElissa.o. . . My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
o.oElissa.o. . . died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
o.oElissa.o. . . on August 20, 1995.
o.oElissa.o. . . She was 20 years old, and going into
o.oElissa.o. . . her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
o.oElissa.o. . . and I began communicating with her.
o.oElissa.o. . . Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
o.oElissa.o. . . wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
o.oElissa.o. . . Ponder.
o.oElissa.o. . . It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
o.oElissa.o. . . and physical existence, of the continuity between life
o.oElissa.o. . . and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
o.oElissa.o. . . And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
o.oElissa.o. . . to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
o.oElissa.o. . . share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
o.oElissa.o. . . to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
o.oElissa.o. . . If you have any further questions, please feel free to
o.oElissa.o. . . private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
o.oElissa.o. . . or email Randy or me anytime.
o.oElissa.o. . . And let us know if you would like
o.oElissa.o. . . to be on our email list. Thanks for coming... and again, welcome!
o.oElissa.o. . . Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
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o.ojj.o. . . no
o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((deni-face))))))
o.oDeni.o. . . hi Lissa-pooh!
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . evenin deni
o.oDeni.o. . . hi everyone
o.oDeni.o. . . Hi WhiteTiger :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . any questions?
o.oTF88.o. . . Deni :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Before we begin our chat for tonight, as we always do we will offer a simple invocation
o.oRevRandy.o. . . please join in the spirit of these words
o.oRevRandy.o. . . May we be connected to all things loving
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Protected from all things evil
o.oRevRandy.o. . . And guided in all ways gracious. Namaste
o.oDeni.o. . . Amen
o.oHanna.o. . . Blessings to all
o.ojsp.o. . . amen
o.oElissa.o. . . ~amen
o.oTF88.o. . . peace
o.oamy.o. . . amen
o.oJackie.o. . . amen
o.ojj.o. . . amen
o.oATracyin_FL.o. . . Amen
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Tonight, we are going to look at three concepts -- trust, faith, and hope --- question AT?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . And to do this we are going to use some Points to Ponder given us by Rikkity
o.oRevRandy.o. . . our own thoughts
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and some thoughts donated by a few others on the other side
o.oRevRandy.o. . . So, let's begin with Trust
o.oElissa.o. . . and on this side
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"And now a big clarification. It's about connections and connecting.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2There's a big difference between those two.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2What we seek is the grand feeling of connection.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2Some seek it as love, some as belonging, but... but... but, it's not the same as trying to connect with everybody.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2Just like some people are connected to the physical world by being alive in it,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2but they are not and have not a connection to it and/or, better, with it. One is one-sided and the other is equal.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"When you connect you give yourself, when you have connection you give and receive.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2In spiritual matters just as in physical matters, an element doesn't become part of a
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2more complex entity without a full and equal connection.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2It isn't just one hand holding onto whatever, it's two hands grasping each other.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2Picture a mountain climber trying to get or receive aid from another.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2If only one hand grasps are they really connected? No. But together think what they can do.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"So, as I learned, it's not how many people you know or how many people know you,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2but rather if you and another can allow a flow of spirit across the boundaries of your beings.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2It's like those people who have parties for 100 of their closest friends but die alone.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2Just a little clarification, big learning, and bigger remembering.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"For someone with seeming connections in all directions (racial, religious, etc.)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2it is really much harder to have a sense of connection.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2It's easier when your connection options as a child are one-dimensional;
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2then, as a teen, you can make them multi-dimensional.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2But if you start out with connection possibilities in many directions,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2you have a hard time feeling like there are any." (8/13/97 - V#31)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . OK - I said I was focusing on trust, and then I gave you this PtoP on connections
o.ojsp.o. . . we trust you rev :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and you might wonder -- what is he doing?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . ty
o.oRevRandy.o. . . let me start with the images in this point -- of connection
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and about that connection being two way
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . connection pivots on the point of trust
o.oRevRandy.o. . . picture if you will a line of connection from you to someone else
o.oRevRandy.o. . . it has a linearity to it -- pointing from you to them
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and it has a directionality to it also
o.oRevRandy.o. . . like a big ---------.o. . .
o.oRevRandy.o. . . we probably have many such lines radiating out from us
o.oRevRandy.o. . . in many directions
o.oRevRandy.o. . . in many different intensities
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and intentionalities
o.oRevRandy.o. . . all one directional
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and coming toward us are many other such connectional lines
o.oRevRandy.o. . . -------------
o.oRevRandy.o. . . coming from others
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . in each case, we have part of an equation
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . DaLeaf :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . part of a connection in the way we are thinking of it
o.oDancingLeaves.o. . . DaTiger
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but what if we put the two together
o.oRevRandy.o. . . ----------
o.oRevRandy.o. . . ----------
o.oRevRandy.o. . . to form a unit --
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol...1+1=3
o.ojsp.o. . . "----------"
* Elissa is getting dizzy
o.oRevRandy.o. . . in which the giving and receiving are equal, opposite, and complementary, all at the same time
o.oRevRandy.o. . . yep - jsp and WT
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . "getting" ;)
o.oElissa.o. . . :P
o.oRevRandy.o. . . something which was only energy going in one direction
o.oRevRandy.o. . . joins with something which was only energy going in the reverse direction
o.oRevRandy.o. . . to form a bond
o.oRevRandy.o. . . a connection
o.oJackie.o. . . -----------------*--------------
o.ojsp.o. . . ah! a kiss!
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lmao... smoochiepoos
o.ojsp.o. . . seriously -- i really like the "flow of spirit" part of the quote with this
o.oRevRandy.o. . . a connection, more importantly that can only be sustained in its form by the two directions be, in the totality of the relationship, equal
o.oRevRandy.o. . . And this, to me, is what trust is .... a meeting of linearities, of radiating lines such that two form a new, sustaining, supporting mutual flow of spirit.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"When you connect you give yourself, when you have connection you give and receive.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2In spiritual matters just as in physical matters, an element doesn't become part of a
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2more complex entity without a full and equal connection.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2It isn't just one hand holding onto whatever, it's two hands grasping each other.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2Picture a mountain climber trying to get or receive aid from another.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2If only one hand grasps are they really connected? No. But together think what they can do.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"So, as I learned, it's not how many people you know or how many people know you,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2but rather if you and another can allow a flow of spirit across the boundaries of your beings.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2It's like those people who have parties for 100 of their closest friends but die alone.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2Just a little clarification, big learning, and bigger remembering.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . it is a mutual moving beyond the boundaries of our beings
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . submit that this whole concept hinges not on "giving" but rather on accepting... and hence the "trust" element
o.ojsp.o. . . it's the offering and being open to receiving and mixing with, too , wt
o.oRevRandy.o. . . WT -- I think it hinges on both -- being able to truly receive, and also to truly give
o.ojsp.o. . . :)
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . ez!!!!!!
o.oElissa.o. . . perhaps it doesn't need to be either/or, but both, wt
o.oezwind.o. . . hi REv
o.oElissa.o. . . hey ez!
o.oezwind.o. . . hello
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I think trust is always both, E
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . imo, the giving is inherent in the reception... long as what yer talking about is accepting another completely within yer sense of "self"
o.oElissa.o. . . i agree randy
o.oRevRandy.o. . . it is a process of interaction along compatible lines
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . but I think for some people, they can be open to others more than they can be open about themselves
o.oElissa.o. . . that makes sense, wt!
o.oATracyin_FL.o. . . ok got it
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . exactly the point, RR :) it seems to be a case of having trust enough in the other to permit them fully within... and not try to hide the funkies under the stairwell
o.oRevRandy.o. . . So, in terms of the various concepts we look at tonight, I see trust as the building and maintaining of a mutual bond between two (or more) entities such that there can be open, receptive, equal spirit flow
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . you have funkies under your stairwell too?
* Elissa passes wt the funkies repellent
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . and dustbunnies under the furniture too ;)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . be open and receptive of funkies too
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . perzactly, RR!
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and E, what say ye, about trust
o.oElissa.o. . . ah, well i will give you the PtoP for the week
o.oElissa.o. . . no yellow highlighting though :(
o.oElissa.o. . . but it fits nicely here:
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13"When we think about the process of coming together
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13in ever-more complex ways, one might be tempted to ask
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13after the purpose of it all. Tsk tsk tsk. It's not about
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13a destination, it's about an infinite process. If you
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13seek the end you'll miss the middle, which is the
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13secret. Those who focus on beginnings or ends--on where
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13they're coming from or going to--miss the journey. Being
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13on our way is meaning enough. If one is part of the
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13ultimate process of being, who needs ultimate meaning;
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13it's contained in everything that already is. 'If not
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13now, when.' Yes, but what's the point. No point. It
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13takes trust, and not being a short-timer. And we
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13actually have fewer short-timers now than before.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,13Mongol hordes were all first-timers." (3/17/97 - V#27)
o.oElissa.o. . . so the flow, the process of connection that happens with trust, is what makes meaning and allows us to move forward toward a greater complexity
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . is there some more context or backgrounding for the term "short timer"?
o.oElissa.o. . . o yes, a lot more... but not in this PtoP
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . reader's digest version? ;)
o.oElissa.o. . . short timer is one who has not had more than 3 physical lives
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . thx
o.oElissa.o. . . after 3, you're over the spiritual hump, so to speak :)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . "physical" meaning here, in this 3D space?
o.oElissa.o. . . so, to trust means to trust both yourself and the universe... a 2-way street
o.oElissa.o. . . yes, wt
o.oElissa.o. . . what do these thoughts about trust evoke to you guys?
o.oJackie.o. . . carpe diem, life's a journey, enjoy the ride, getting there is half the fun, live in the now, don't spread yourself too thin in superficial relationships
o.oElissa.o. . . being open to what's there, jackie?
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol jackie... pithy and direct :)
o.oJackie.o. . . yes, in some ways
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o.oElissa.o. . . hi winne
o.oElissa.o. . . anyone else?
o.oTF88.o. . . so waiting for trust to happen to us won't exactly move us along as quickly...we need to consciously connect to trust.
o.oTF88.o. . . (that was me thinking out loud...not a statement)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I think you are right TF -- it is a proactive position
o.oElissa.o. . . yes, tf! trust is active... especially if we lose it in childhood
o.oJackie.o. . . if you find someone you can really share some serious deeper meaning with (say on the same wavelength) be open to give and receive,
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . imo, trust aint an external (nor internal) "thing" ya plug into... it is a state of being one comes to
o.oJackie.o. . . don't be superficial
o.oElissa.o. . . yes, a state of being
o.oRevRandy.o. . . And I think these two visions of trust give us an insight into why sometimes we can spend a lot of time with someone and not have trust
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and other times we spend only a short time and feel trust is there
o.oRevRandy.o. . . But, let me expand this concept of trust, if I may
o.oRevRandy.o. . . (Mother, May I?)
o.oElissa.o. . . and i think when we lose trust, we lose our ability to connect as who we really are and start looking for external validation
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . take three giant steps, R ;)
o.oElissa.o. . . go RR :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . each of us, we hope, has a series of trust relationships
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and all of them form into a larger whole
o.oRevRandy.o. . . let me share my next Point to get where I am going:
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2That doesn't diminish the value of the parts, but the real picture is always larger.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2A trite example: New York City is great,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2but there is a larger greatness of many cities taken together as our cultural center.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2In Europe they cherish the culture, but choose one city as culture capital each year,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2but know the whole is the real greatness.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2So if you were to focus on me, say, and miss the larger reality, that would
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2So if you were to focus on me, say, and miss the larger reality, that would be a loss.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"I am not the object here, or even the subject, but only the way or the passage.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2Like Jesus always said, it wasn't about him but what larger things he shared.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"If the point of all is increasing complexity, and we achieve that by coming together into entities,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2then aren't the entities what are important--not the units.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2As long as we focus on the building blocks, we never build anything.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2You have to be ready to accept them as finished, or at least ready, at some point.
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o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((journey))))))
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2'No, not yet.' 'No, not yet.' 'If not now, when.'
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2Read the whole Hillel quotation; substitute all the pronouns; see its deep wisdom.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2Get yourself ready, as treely as you can." (4/24/96 - V#17)
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o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((fang))))))
o.oRevRandy.o. . . So, back to my highlighted portion
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2That doesn't diminish the value of the parts, but the real picture is always larger.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2A trite example: New York City is great,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2but there is a larger greatness of many cities taken together as our cultural center.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2In Europe they cherish the culture, but choose one city as culture capital each year,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2but know the whole is the real greatness.
o.ofang.o. . . hi elissa, rr
o.oRevRandy.o. . . if each of us has these trust relationships, each of us has a pattern of connecting lines .... and now to remember that ancient geometry
o.oRevRandy.o. . . a circle is only a series of small lines .... arc segments.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . All of our trust relationships define a kind of circle of trust
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and in seeing that circle of trust, we see not only what is defined by what already is,
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but also by something greater ..
o.oRevRandy.o. . . the something greater which is more than the sum of our parts - our trust
o.oRevRandy.o. . . our experience of trust
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . ahhhh... but without a stable center of rotation (self trust), the circle is irregular, flawed, and loses it's strength of structure
o.oRevRandy.o. . . opens us to a larger circle of possible connection
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and that larger circle I want to call faith
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . and yes, WT - it must be centered in some way ... and that center has to be in us, or it is not our circle
o.oRevRandy.o. . . (and so many people try to adopt the faith circles of others, and those circles center on other lives .. so they do not work)
o.oJackie.o. . . This also reminds me of the discussion on energy. If you send your energy in one direction and it plus the energy of the other makes a greater energy, then you are helping. If send your energy and it is used up and gone, then it is wasted .gone
o.oElissa.o. . . good point, jackie
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Jackie -- it is making some kind of "whole" of what you are doing ... not just making lots of parts
o.oElissa.o. . . and you don't always know what that whole is while it is becoming
o.oElissa.o. . . that's where faith comes in
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . trust in self means self knowledge and acceptance.. that is the means of getting to self trust... ya have to accept all of yerself first (even the nasty bit's we'd rather not admit even to ourselves
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and our "faith" is that whole which contains/arises from our trust experience/sense, which gives us a vision of something more than we have already known or experienced
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . first it is WT's funkies, and now his nasty bits ....
o.oElissa.o. . . exactly wt
o.oElissa.o. . . lol
o.ojsp.o. . . fortunately, the whole is greater than the sum of his/her parts.... funkies, nasties, and more :)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . it ain't all L&L, RR :) the creator put it all in front of us
o.oRevRandy.o. . . faith is the expansion of our own linear experiences into a larger whole of possibility
o.oRevRandy.o. . . drawing lines of extension to make a whole of it
o.ojourney.o. . . i feel faith as an acceptance of "us" being loved by a higher power
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I think we should pause at this point to ponder this, chat about it, and also take about 10 minutes of break and come back to see what E has to say about faith
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . topology :) wo dimensional linearity can describe three D structures... the easiest of which to build is that circle ;)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . yep WT ...
o.oElissa.o. . . bbbbbbbrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
o.oElissa.o. . . but keep chatting... as if we could stop you lol
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o.ojourney.o. . . I just want to say Hi Rev and Elissa and All
o.ojsp.o. . . hi journey :)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . howdy journey :)
o.oDeni.o. . . hi journey :)
o.oezwind.o. . . hi All
o.ojourney.o. . . hi everybody!
o.oHanna.o. . . hey ya journey :))
o.oJackie.o. . . hi
o.ojourney.o. . . and miss Hanna, it is sooo nice to see you again :)
o.ojourney.o. . . are you back?
o.oATracyin_FL.o. . . after the meeting can we get a reading?
o.oKDennis.o. . . Hello everyone, My first time joining you all
o.oDeni.o. . . welcome KDennis
o.oKDennis.o. . . ty
o.ofang.o. . . they don't do readings here atracyin
o.oHanna.o. . . thank you journey.. yes, I'm sorta kinda here... hehehe
o.ojourney.o. . . haahha hanna, me too
o.oHanna.o. . . buying myself as much time as I can as I get sorta kinda organized.. although I think I am gonna admit defeat to that for this lifetime.. lol
o.ojourney.o. . . till another week or so , i am sporadic
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o.ojsp.o. . . listen to your heart though AT :) -- what you need to hear is already there :D
o.ofarala.o. . . Hi all
o.oRevRandy.o. . . hello farala
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o.oElissa.o. . . ok, we probably need to get started again, since there's a lot to talk about
o.ojsp.o. . . great!
o.oElissa.o. . . randy you ready?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I am always ready -- but you are up
o.oKDennis.o. . . wonderful yes please
o.oElissa.o. . . welcome K and all who are joining us now
o.oShari.o. . . Hi All, My first time here.
o.oElissa.o. . . this is about faith, and seeing the big picture...
o.ofarala.o. . . this is my first time here too:
o.ofarala.o. . . :)
o.oElissa.o. . . it's a long point, and i'll put it out here quickly,
o.oElissa.o. . . but please take your time reading it
o.oElissa.o. . . welcome farala
o.ofarala.o. . . thank you very much
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4"What makes a fool. And what tricks has life played
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4on you. And into that bring the image of the trickster:
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4not bad, not good, just paradoxical and enigmatic. And
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4so we find that April 1 is about ambiguity; and tricks
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4remind us that, while life as a whole offers meaning
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4through our capacity to learn and remember, in any given
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4moment it is more perplexing than meaningful. And one of
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4the tricks of life is that we do not see the pieces
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4until we grasp the whole.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4"So a series of ambiguous moments may add up to
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4momentous understanding. Can anyone relate to that.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4‘Yes, anyone... anyone... anyone. And then the U.S.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4sank deeper into the Great Depression.' [from ‘Ferris
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4Bueller's Day Off']. But I use the quote mindfully.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4When we look for meaning in the small pieces and not the
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4grand sweep, we fall into depression. What depresses
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4people spiritually is that they do not sense a growing
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4meaning in the moment. Faith speaks to a larger
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4understanding that beyond the tricks of nature there is
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4meaning; and faith is not about a belief in a
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4particular set of meanings, but about there being a set
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4of meanings in every life....
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4"When you approach life with a microscope, you look so
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4hard at minute details that you lose the bigger picture.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4This happens in grief. And if you look at life through a
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4telescope, then it is seen at a distance and seems
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4removed--which is the response of some in grief. But
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4when we can restore a 1-to-1 ratio of viewpoint, then we
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4move towards understanding. Too close and we think it is
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4all personal, and too distant and we think it is all
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4devoid of meaning. Not scientific or objective,
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4shmective... it is more a question of perspectives. If
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4you don't sense the whole picture, that's not good; and
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4if you remove yourself from the whole picture, no
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4better. Look, if you are part of All That Is, then you
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4better be there. And if All That Is cannot exist without
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4you, you better show up.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4"Recovery from loss is about reestablishing a 1-to-1
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4ratio with life--equal terms, partners, compadres,
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4amigos--rather than looking at life as an antagonist,
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4or at yourself as a victim. Which is why loss is
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4multiply-part. We lose someone physically, and we also
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4lose the relationship we had with life itself. When we
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4are in a good ratio it is as if we were married to life,
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4but come a loss or death and we also have to deal with
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4the breakup of our marriage with life. It's like the
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4loved one left and our supportive partner also decided
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4to leave. And that's the trick of it. Life didn't leave
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4us, we left it and need to find our way back. Whoa.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4So, that's enough.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4
o.oElissa.o. . . but there's more :)
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4"Tricks of life are only tricks until we integrate
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4ourselves and them into a larger perspective. People
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4talk about a cruel twist of fate, but it is cruel only
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4if we think it is; and it is a twist or trick of fate
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4only if we view it that way. And usually that means we
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4try to impose our view of causation on a situation
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4without causation. Ok, grad students, ‘correlation is
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4not causation.' And when we learn and remember that,
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4ahhh. So, enough." (3/29/2000 - O#42)
o.oElissa.o. . . when we look too closely, or keep ourselves at too much of a distance from life
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . perspectives... like the scientist with an experiment rigged to give the desired outcome(s), we tend to see what we expect to see in a given situation
o.oElissa.o. . . we miss the bigger picture... and what happens to our faith when we do that?
o.ojsp.o. . . becomes short sighted? :)
o.oTF88.o. . . just like music (as always)...can't make sense of the parts without envisioning the whole...can't make sense of the whole without all the parts.
o.ojsp.o. . . ooo tf - i like that better!
o.oTF88.o. . . :)
o.oElissa.o. . . yes jsp, or perhaps we look for what we expect, or what we already know and feel comfortable with... or we get angry, or disappointed, etc., etc.
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . faith generally goes out the window for a while after "loss"... the old "how can God allow this kinda bad stuff?"
o.ojsp.o. . . knowing the form, can *in*form the whole experience --- as in music
o.ojj.o. . . so true white tiger, i am in that now
o.oTF88.o. . . oooo jsp...and I like THAT
o.oElissa.o. . . definitely, wt... a nearly universal experience i'd say
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o.ojsp.o. . . ((((loving that connection with tf...!! :D)
o.oTF88.o. . . :D
o.oRevRandy.o. . . WT- that part about a loss of faith is connecting point to our theme of hope
o.oElissa.o. . . and the trick jsp, is to have faith that there IS a form we cannot understand or see completely
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . narrows the focus to self... "somebody took my toy!"
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . yep RR :)
o.oElissa.o. . . it's all connected :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Should we move on to hope, then
o.ojj.o. . . please
o.oElissa.o. . . so faith in something larger can give us hope... but so often we settle for faith in something smaller or concrete
o.oElissa.o. . . people put their faith in static images...
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . in grief, we generally retreat to the safest faith... faith in what already has been... that we can trust, cuz it's is unchangeable and can be counted on
o.oElissa.o. . . maybe that's what that commandment about not worshipping idols is about
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but isn't grief often about our experiencing a loss of something that we thought we could trust?
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol elissa.. yers is much shorter
o.ojourney.o. . . i see in grief the loss of faith in "ourselves" and drives us.
o.oElissa.o. . . lol wt
o.oElissa.o. . . yours is right on in my experience
o.oElissa.o. . . journey, and also the loss of faith in how life is "supposed" to be
o.ojourney.o. . . agreed
o.oRevRandy.o. . . well, if faith is that larger whole that we discover by piecing together the units of trust we experience in life, and we come to know that faith is larger than any one or all of our units put together
o.oElissa.o. . . faith requires trust
o.oElissa.o. . . yep, what he said :)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . good one journey... loss of faith in self during grief... "how have I failed that this is happening to me"
o.oRevRandy.o. . . we put ourselves in a bind when we experience a loss of a specific trust relationship and loss the whole things of faith in the process
o.ojj.o. . . so true white tiger
o.oRevRandy.o. . . that is looking microscopically, rather than wholistically .... which is all we can do in the midst of that loss
o.ojourney.o. . . i think faith has two sides, the physical and the spiritual, kinda like the left and right brain thingy
o.oElissa.o. . . or telescopically, when we feel we have to remove ourselves from life because it is too painful
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Let me move us on to hope ....
o.oElissa.o. . . ok
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . RR- which is why it's so important to get out of the "loss" mindset... can't see diddly from inside there ;)
o.ojsp.o. . . (was hoping we'd get there - on to hope!) :D
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol jsp
o.ojourney.o. . . (((hugs jsp))
o.oRevRandy.o. . . one of the problems in our living out of our experiences is that often expect that our future will be based similar to our past
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and by this I mean that how the trust was experienced before (linear, predictive, mutual) will be the same pattern that will bring us larger meaning
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and loss suddenly presents us with chaos .... the linear pieces of life are falling apart
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol... "logic: a way of conning ourselves into believing that today is yesterday and therefore presents no new dangers"
o.oRevRandy.o. . . so, here is a part of a PtoP:
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"Do you get the very special thing I am saying. Hope is not about having
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2everything come out right as we would have perceived it before the
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2situation. Hope is a trusting that after the situation we will perceive
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2meaning and learn from it. So, you are here doing this because your beliefs
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2said spiritual persistence is possible, and that gave you the hope of
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2talking to me. It couldn't stop my death. It can't make it all ok by
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2standards of before the accident, but it can make m
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2standards of before the accident, but it can make meaning of the realities.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2You, through hope, perceive meaning where, without that hope, you would have
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2none; and those perceptions open you to new experiences.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Now this is a piece of a much (!) longer point ... and I will share it all in just a moment
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but what I am looking at is this concept that hope is not about arriving at a specific point within our circle of faith
o.oRevRandy.o. . . it is not about having our familiar trust cords replaced
o.ojsp.o. . . it's the growing of new and unexpected ones
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but that there is a place, somewhere, probably unpredictable, in that circle of faith, where we will find ourselves
o.oRevRandy.o. . . even after going through a profound loss.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . It is not hope that this or that will happen, but that we can find ourselves meaningfully and within a whole faith circle even after the greatest loss.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . Yep jsp -- our circle may change, but we will still have a place in it .... we just won't be able to choose or predetermine which place
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and now, let me share the whole, big point of which this portion was a part:
o.oElissa.o. . . it takes a certain level of comfort with chaos... and that is a major lesson grief can teach us
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2" 'Hope is the thing with feathers.' But hope is also the medium of change
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2within perception. Beliefs speak of our thoughtful and soulful aspirations;
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2they are the expressions of a view beyond the known or the given or the
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2experienced. However, beliefs are not enough. One can have a belief without
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2much feeling for its fulfillment. Some say, 'I believe I will go here or
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2there,' but then add, 'I have little hope I will do that before I die.' If
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2beliefs are the target then hope is the momentum; it takes hope to have a
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2belief shape a perception.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"You can't have hope without a vision of belief, but you can have belief
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2without hope. But, I challenge you to tell me what the value of a hopeless
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2belief is. It is a paper belief, like a paper tiger. If one has beliefs that
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2do not lead to hope, what's the point. Often, people beyond hope must change
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2their beliefs. So hope is the link; it can't stand alone. And here's the
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2clinker: if it doesn't lead to something it withers. So, ‘a hope deferred is
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2a hope denied,' as my bro Langston said. So follow this: belief must lead to
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2hope or it's not a real belief for you; hope must lead to change of
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2perception or it's not hope for you. Too many people live by other people's
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2hopes.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"Now for a concrete example, or actually a wet one: lifeboat, several
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2people. Some say that they believe it is beyond hope. They give up and so
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2it's beyond hope for them. Others say they believe this or that, but it
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2gives them no hope so they have also given up. But others say they believe.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2Some believe in God and prayer, and so they pray; others believe in their
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2physical strength and that gives them hope, and they begin to paddle; some
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2believe in creativity and so have hope, and they stitch together a sail and
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2sail on. Those without hope will be lost souls even if they are rescued, for
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2they found their beliefs brought no hope. And those who hope will be saved
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2even if they are not rescued, for they will have lived out their lives to
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2the fullness of their being and believing. Make sense. Or, a person is
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2facing cancer: no beliefs, no hope, goodbye; beliefs but no hope, goodbye;
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2beliefs and hope, chance to recover or to die with understanding and
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2meaning.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2"Do you get the very special thing I am saying. Hope is not about having
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2everything come out right as we would have perceived it before the
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2situation. Hope is a trusting that after the situation we will perceive
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2meaning and learn from it. So, you are here doing this because your beliefs
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2said spiritual persistence is possible, and that gave you the hope of
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2talking to me. It couldn't stop my death. It can't make it all ok by
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2standards of before the accident, but it can make meaning of the realities.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2You, through hope, perceive meaning where, without that hope, you would have
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 8,2none; and those perceptions open you to new experiences.
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2"Belief, hope, perception, experience: the equation enlarges. And there is
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2more between perception and experience, but that's another day. And I
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2caution you, hope without belief is as foolish as belief without hope. Both
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2will suck you dry spiritually--one seemingly negative as no hope; and one
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2seemingly positive hope, but no faith. You need both. Faith and beliefs are
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2cousins. Beliefs are the materials that are gathered and assembled and named
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2through faith. Faith is a verb. Faith is the means to beliefs that engender
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2hope that you will perceive a world that is moved by _____ to new
o.oRevRandy.o. . . 0,2experiences." (3/10/99 - I#32)
o.ojsp.o. . . biggie that one... good stuff!
o.oRevRandy.o. . . lots going on in that one
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I leave it for y'all to ponder - any more comments on it ... questions ....
o.ojsp.o. . . more between the perception and experience???
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . faith is a verb?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . I don't know what that means? I guess there is more that will be shared with us
o.oElissa.o. . . you'll hear about that in the next one, jsp
o.ojsp.o. . . ah -- ok i can be patient :)
o.oElissa.o. . . :)
o.ojsp.o. . . faith is not a thing or a badge wt -- it's known by it's action
o.ojsp.o. . . hence: verb
o.oElissa.o. . . faith is not static
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . seems to me a tad like saying the car is the crosscountry trip
o.oRevRandy.o. . . faith is the circling around our experiences, not the circle per se
o.ojourney.o. . . geesh, my brain is blowing up with that one :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . or is auto an object or a process of motion
o.oElissa.o. . . lol journey... just hold onto the pieces
o.ojourney.o. . . i shall try elissa :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but if your faith brings you no hope, is it really faith, and if your hope does not lead to a larger faith, is it hope?
o.ojsp.o. . . there ya go :)
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o.oRevRandy.o. . . hey suwan!
o.osuwan.o. . . :)
o.oDeni.o. . . hi suwan :)
o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((suwan))))))
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . hmmmm
o.osuwan.o. . . hi y'all
o.oRevRandy.o. . . WT pondering!!!!!!
o.ojsp.o. . . let it sit with you wt :) -- it will come to you in time :D
o.oElissa.o. . . or not lol
o.ojsp.o. . . LOL
o.osuwan.o. . . ahh the points must be poking WT!
o.oRevRandy.o. . . have hope and faith that it will
o.oElissa.o. . . suwan is late but on target
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . something in the pattern of that one don't quite gel for me
o.oRevRandy.o. . . that's the point WT -- it doesn't gel, it is in motion
o.ojsp.o. . . let it sit with you and see what comes to you about it from the back of your mind :)
o.oElissa.o. . . get ready because here comes another PtoP:
o.ojsp.o. . . ok!
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . the patterns always gel ;)
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12"Now more about hope. Hope does not create realities, it
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12only opens us to the possibilities we could not see
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12without it. So it is like a lens, not an object. And
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12hope without a viewer cannot exist. Hope is always tied
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12to a spirit, whether alive or dead. So, to speak of
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12collective hopes is to do a political number to a
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12personal thingie. The collective cannot do anything,
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12except as it represents the realities of individuals.
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12And hope without action is like a recipe without food--
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,12you get the idea but it is not satisfying." (3/13/99 - I#33)
o.oElissa.o. . . so, jsp, there's the answer to your question
o.ojsp.o. . . :)
o.oElissa.o. . . action is necessary for experience
o.ojsp.o. . . always :D
o.oElissa.o. . . it's not enough to just sit around with your hope...
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . hope is the flip side of the fear coin... fear is anticipation of future pain based on past experience... hope is anticipation of future feel-good on the same basis
o.oElissa.o. . . you need to put it into action... or rather to act in the direction it takes you,
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . (imo)
o.oElissa.o. . . no matter how scary that might be
o.oezwind.o. . . and like with trust, hope relates both to yourself and to the universe
o.oElissa.o. . . if we had hope we could talk to Rikkity, but didn't DO anything about it...
o.oElissa.o. . . well this chat would look like this:
o.oElissa.o. . .
o.oElissa.o. . .
o.ojourney.o. . . faith :)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . hope is a faith in the intersection of you and the universal, I would think, ez
o.oRevRandy.o. . . good point E
o.oezwind.o. . . even better, rev
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and that intersection may be at different points as your life changes (and as the universe changes
o.oezwind.o. . . um hmmm
o.oRevRandy.o. . . why is it that we expect to change, but do not expect the universe to change or our points of connection with it to change
o.oElissa.o. . . it's also acknowledging that the universe is chaotic from our perspective as concrete physical beings... but there IS a way forward
o.oRevRandy.o. . . yes, and that way is .....
o.ojsp.o. . . (drum roll)
o.oezwind.o. . . .....
o.oElissa.o. . . and to go forward, what do we need?
o.oElissa.o. . . our question to all of you
o.oElissa.o. . . ponder that :)
o.oElissa.o. . . each one of us must find his/her own
o.oElissa.o. . . you ain't gonna get no easy answers here lol
o.ojsp.o. . . (more drum roll)
o.oElissa.o. . . but you do get love and support
o.ojourney.o. . . do we ever? lol
o.oElissa.o. . . hahahaha
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . actually, the answer is easy... it's the implementation that is the pits ;)
o.ojsp.o. . . doesn't have to be wt
o.oRevRandy.o. . . again , easy answers have hard implementation, and hard answers often then have easy implementation
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lol... depends which answer yer talking about, jsp ;)
o.ojj.o. . . i agree wt
o.oElissa.o. . . it takes some courage, and being willing to go forward even when we don't know what lies ahead... but we do that anyway, don't we :)
o.oElissa.o. . . we just need to give up the illusion of control
o.ojourney.o. . . it is always to go inside oneself and explore the amount of love, etc we have for ourselves and each other
o.ojsp.o. . . so hard for people to do, isn't it, give up that illusion of control
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . Elissa :) "ain't but one hand on the wheel"
o.ojsp.o. . . that's where faith trust and hope come in wt :D
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4Look, if you are part of All That Is, then you
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4better be there. And if All That Is cannot exist without
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4you, you better show up.
o.ojourney.o. . . one hand can be the grounding point for many.
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . "come in" or "come from", jsp? *G*
o.ojsp.o. . . yup :D
* TF88 whispers goodnight...and thanks
o.ojsp.o. . . sweet dreams tf!
o.oElissa.o. . . well folks, we've got a couple of minutes more... any other thoughts out there?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . but if most of the requirement of life is "just showing up", then that is why loss is so hard, because it feel like in its aftermath we don't even show up
o.ojj.o. . . because it is so hard to go on
o.ojj.o. . . and so very painful
o.oKDennis.o. . . what are the reference numbers you are using?
o.oRevRandy.o. . . we wonder if we can go on, and if we will ever find meaning again
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . one of the pitfalls of trying to steer by "feeling"... it's too easy to end up driving in that circle
o.oElissa.o. . . yes, it is hard and painful... and also can be rewarding
*** Mar (MarilynTT@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
o.oElissa.o. . . K those are numbers we use on our website to organize the points to ponder
o.oRevRandy.o. . . those number refer to where they are catalogued in our Points to Ponder pages at our website- as in R#19 would be the red section, #19
o.ojourney.o. . . i find there are more roads than one in all aspects of love and loss
o.oKDennis.o. . . ty
o.oElissa.o. . . yw x 2
o.ojsp.o. . . you say that like it's a bad thing wt...?
o.oKDennis.o. . . lol
o.ojj.o. . . To me it is according to the loss you have suffered.....Some are different...and are life changing forever
o.oElissa.o. . . o yes, journey! as many roads as there are people
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . lmao... and you sound like you assume it is a default good thing, jsp ;)
o.ojsp.o. . . keeping the big picture in mind sometimes allows for more of that wt :D
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and the road we thought we needed to take to get to where we thoughts we wanted to go and be may not be the road open to us and where it leads may not be where we thought we would go, but getting there we can discover meaning there ,,, maybe even more than where we thought we should go
o.ojourney.o. . . we take the path suited to our "self", this SP is a path of tremendous growth. "stretches my brain", and i am grateful.
o.ojsp.o. . . right RR
o.oRevRandy.o. . . well folks, it is time to go again .... neither Elissa nor I got washed away or booted off tonight, which is a miracle
o.oElissa.o. . . and we are grateful for all of you being here... would be pretty quiet without you lol
o.ojsp.o. . . LOL! time went by so fast
o.oDeni.o. . . thanks for the chat!
o.oRevRandy.o. . . next week, in the states, it is labor day, a holiday weekend,
o.oKDennis.o. . . great disscusion ty
o.ojj.o. . . my loss is the same as Rev Randy and Elissa...same age, college everything...my daughter only child..hard to go on, but thank you for tonight
o.ojsp.o. . . (((((jj))))))
o.oElissa.o. . . ((((((jj)))))) i'm glad you were here
o.oRevRandy.o. . . and so we will not be chatting (Rikkity says she would probably go partying if she were us)
o.ojourney.o. . . (((hugs jj)))
o.oRevRandy.o. . . jj - come and join us again .... be in touch
o.ojj.o. . . thank you Rev Randy
o.oElissa.o. . . and here's that song again:)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . it is so hard to go (O, I know those days, and those nights)
o.ojsp.o. . . safe trip to all!
o.ojj.o. . . yes just 4 months ago for us
o.oElissa.o. . . 0,4!Elissa rainbow.mid 4,0 :o)
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . enjoy the bbq (or whatever) Elissa, RR ;)
o.oRevRandy.o. . . our closing theme ... good night to all
o.oElissa.o. . . thanks wt and give my love to hyper
o.ojj.o. . . good night and thank you
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . wilco
o.oRevRandy.o. . . jj - that is so recent (even though probably some are wanting to tell you it is time to move on)
o.ojsp.o. . . sweet dreams and safe trip and lotsalove gang -- till next time
o.ojourney.o. . . Rev and Elissa, thanks, see you soon and have missed ya. God Bless.
*** journey (ptomli4650@***.ipt.aol.com) has left #SpiritualPersistence
o.oElissa.o. . . nite all!
o.oamy.o. . . good night and thank you
o.oRevRandy.o. . . see y'll in two weeks
o.ofarala.o. . . thank you nite
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . delivered, Elissa
o.ofang.o. . . night
o.oElissa.o. . . love to all of you :)
o.osuwan.o. . . night lissa
o.oKDennis.o. . . gnight all cya soon
o.oShari.o. . . Thank you all.
o.osuwan.o. . . night rev
o.oWhiteTiger.o. . . hasta la bye-bye folks :)
o.ojj.o. . . have a safe week take care
o.oDeni.o. . . night everyone
o.osuwan.o. . . goodnight all
o.oHanna.o. . . night to everyone! :)
Session Close: Sun Aug 27 23:09:47 2000

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Last Update: 5/18/2013
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the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
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