07/16/2000 - FREEDOM

Session Start: Sun Jul 16 20:42:29 2000 *** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Freedom" 2,9Sunday 2,11July 16 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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Elissa . . .hey fang!!!
fang . . .hey i'm not to late
RevRandy . . .fang!
Elissa . . .hey you're not!!! you get a gold star!
RevRandy . . .two extra points for fang
fang . . .yea
* Elissa pastes a big gold star on fang's forehead
fang . . .ty
Elissa . . .i have to put on my sunglasses, it's too bright
RevRandy . . .looks good though
fang . . .lol
fang . . .can i ask you a question before the crowd gets here?
Elissa . . .sure
RevRandy . . .sure
fang . . .sometimes i feel like god doesn't like me
fang . . .since i'm going through such hard times
Elissa . . .((((((fang))))))
fang . . .i know when my dad was dying i went through an addiction ( and mom too)
Elissa . . .hard times are not a measure of god's love, sweetie... addictions
Elissa . . .are a way of avoiding dealing with pain... not a punishment
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Elissa . . .sometimes we don't know how much we can deal with, so we try to avoid it and hang on to the past
RevRandy . . .hello all (StF and TF)
StF . . .Hi
Elissa . . .hey tf! and stf!
fang . . .i feel like my old life is following me
TF88 . . .hi E, Randy, St and fang
fang . . .and that's why i'm having a tough time finding work
fang . . .and i get very depressed
Elissa . . .following you in what way?
fang . . .hi stf, and tf
fang . . .well i've lived here my whole life
fang . . .it seems like everyone knows my past
fang . . .( i know this is not totally true) but feel like it
Elissa . . .it may be what you're feeling is that strong pull to fulfill other people's expectations of who you were
Elissa . . .i think this is very relevant to what we'll be discussing tonight
RevRandy . . .some may know about the past -- but you are the one who will decide if the future is based on it or not
TF88 . . .I missed the start of what you're talking about, but in dealing with "past" I've recently taken a new approach to how I view the past.
Elissa . . .what approach, tf
TF88 . . .i've started looking at my past as simply "true"
TF88 . . .does that make sense? I find it hard to describe
Elissa . . .change is very hard, fang... but going back to what seems familiar and safe can hurt so much more in the long run
RevRandy . . .I understand
fang . . .i haven't gone back
RevRandy . . .it is (or was)
Elissa . . .sounds like acceptance, tf
Elissa . . .i know you haven't fang, but you may feel it's a temptation
TF88 . . .well, I no longer have a feeling of needing to hide anything about my past...it's simply what happened.
Elissa . . .cool :)
fang . . .but sometimes i wonder if my dogs life and mine would be better if we weren’t here
fang . . .everyday
Elissa . . ."here" meaning?
fang . . .it might be the depression
fang . . .here on earth
fang . . .sorry to be a downer i'll quit talking
RevRandy . . .no - it's ok to talk here -
StF . . .DONT quit talking...we're listening...
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WhiteTiger . . .Dudette :)
Elissa . . .hi hyper and wt :)
Hypernoodle . . .Hi Elissa :)
WhiteTiger . . .hiya Elissa :)
Hypernoodle . . .Hi RevRandy :)
WhiteTiger . . .RR :)
fang . . .but i'm to go see a vet tomorrow, about maybe grooming,, even though i don't feel totally qualified
Elissa . . .that sounds exactly what you'd be suited for to me!
fang . . .and apply for part time at dog show handlers kennel on tues
RevRandy . . .fang - keep reaching out, and also keep touching back here with us too ...
fang . . .i do
Elissa . . .great!
Elissa . . .RR, ready?
fang . . .i'm truly trying ,,, but don't think anyone notices
RevRandy . . .good luck with those possibilities
fang . . .ok thanks
Elissa . . .fang, no one may notice but you will
RevRandy . . .and yes, I am ready (but for what? ;-) )
Elissa . . .for mischief lol
RevRandy . . .So, hello everybody - it is SP time again
RevRandy . . .and this week we think about freedom from many different angles
RevRandy . . .But first, anyone need Elissa to run the intro - I thought not - ok let's proceed
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
Elissa . . .lol
Elissa . . .o darn and i so wanted to cut and paste that thing AGAIN
Hypernoodle . . .rats.....I look away and miss the first questions
Elissa . . .hahahaha
RevRandy . . .Please join in the spirit of the words of our invocation
RevRandy . . .and think about what they would mean in your own personal life right now-
RevRandy . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . .And guided in all ways gracious. Amen
Elissa . . .amen~
WhiteTiger . . .aho
TF88 . . .peace
Hypernoodle . . .amen
fang . . .amen
RevRandy . . .Once again, Elissa and I are separated by about 500 miles (on two different servers)
Elissa . . .ok, while we're waiting for stf's amen lol...
RevRandy . . .and we hope we will keep our act together
WhiteTiger . . .lol elissa
Elissa . . .i've got mine together... not
Hypernoodle . . .hehe
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmmm... that would seem to hint that yer act has been together at some prior point?
Hypernoodle . . .makes me feel better
Hypernoodle . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .let the heckling begin
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Elissa . . .but i do have some thoughts from a special spirit that should get us going on this topic
RevRandy . . .Well, this all started with some instructions from Rikkity
Elissa . . .wt to the corner ---------------}
RevRandy . . .(OK - I'll be quiet too --- come on, WT, over in the corner with me)
* WhiteTiger grabs the pointy paper hat and the tall stool
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Elissa . . . 0,2TJ:
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"I am now a man of controversy, but my most recent life was that of a
Elissa . . . 0,2milkman in Rehoboth Beach. And a great day to you, sir. One quart or two.
Elissa . . . 0,2
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Elissa . . . 0,2"I want to speak on liberty and freedom. To be free is to have no unnatural
Elissa . . . 0,2restraints on one's actions, thoughts, or beliefs. One in jail is not free;
Elissa . . . 0,2one in chains or servitude is not free. There are many ways we are not free.
Elissa . . . 0,2We choose bonds of marriage or business or the like. The only truly free
Elissa . . . 0,2person is one without connections.
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"Only time and hindsight can tell us which restraints of freedom are worthy
Elissa . . . 0,2and which are not. Is life in what you call a 'gang' freedom, no. Is it
Elissa . . . 0,2good, no. But what about a gang of men who go around acting and talking in
Elissa . . . 0,2seditious ways. Would you say the Disciples were good. Aha, got you.
Elissa . . . 0,2"On the other hand, we have liberty--the ability to create one's own life. I
Elissa . . . 0,2may not be free but I can still have the liberty of my thoughts, my prayers,
Elissa . . . 0,2my God. You can have your freedom taken, for good or ill. You may give up
Elissa . . . 0,2your freedom as well. But liberty can only be given away; it cannot be
Elissa . . . 0,2taken. Yet, so many give up their liberty without a second thought. They
Elissa . . . 0,2blindly follow sects who offer some kind of vision of spiritual freedom. But
Elissa . . . 0,2to give up liberty to gain freedom is folly indeed; for it is liberty that
Elissa . . . 0,2we are endowed with, freedoms we create.
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"To get human freedom at the price of divine creation is the real heresy,
Elissa . . . 0,2for if one were to offer you chains but freedom of spirit, or chains on the
Elissa . . . 0,2soul but freedom of body, which would the wise man choose. In chains, but
Elissa . . . 0,2with liberty, I might still learn from life. Free, but without liberty of
Elissa . . . 0,2soul, I will learn nothing. So one gives away real life for life's comforts
Elissa . . . 0,2when one should rather accept life's adversities; for the chance to
Elissa . . . 0,2experience life is life itself. Freedom is of one life, liberty is of
Elissa . . . 0,2eternity. And I remain your humble servant." (4/4/97 - W#61)
Elissa . . ."To be free is to have no unnatural restraints on one's actions, thoughts,
Elissa . . .or beliefs." an intriguing definition, i think... especially if we consider what
Elissa . . .would be unnatural...
Elissa . . .according to TJ, not only things like servitude are
Elissa . . .unnatural, but also the roles we choose, such as in marriage or career...
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WhiteTiger . . .the only "unnatural" thing is the one ya can't do
Elissa . . .those roles require us to be in a way that may not come naturally to us, and
Elissa . . .yet because we choose them freely we tend to think we can be free within them...
Elissa . . .i'm wrestling with this concept,
Elissa . . .but it seems to say that to expect to be free
Elissa . . .within the limitations of life makes no sense... but we can have the liberty of
Elissa . . .our ability to learn and grow from our experiences...
Hypernoodle . . .I am still trying to learn speed reading!
TF88 . . .excuse me...what is the definition of "seditious"?
Elissa . . .that's what scrolling is for lol
Hypernoodle . . .you better believe I use it too!
Elissa . . .i believe it's the same as treason
StF . . .going against established rules
TF88 . . .thank you
Elissa . . .so, to continue...
Elissa . . .within whatever
Elissa . . .circumstances we and life present to each other... and to give up that
Elissa . . .liberty of spirit in order to gain wealth or status or the absence of pain
Elissa . . .is to give up the only true freedom we have... i'm thinking now about those
Elissa . . .who use drugs or alcohol or "retail therapy" (shopping) to dull the pain of
Elissa . . .grief so that they can more comfortably avoid dealing with life and loss and
Elissa . . .change...
Elissa . . .many other things offer us comfort at the expense of our liberty,
Elissa . . .such as some religions and political systems... but what does this mean to
Elissa . . .you?
TF88 . . .we also give up freedom by using the phrase "I have to..." or "I should..." etc.
TF88 . . .when it truly is a choice we are making
Elissa . . .tf, you and i need to start an anti-should campaign lol
TF88 . . .hahaha
RevRandy . . .You should do that
Elissa . . .:P
TF88 . . .I can understand how you might feel that way ;) (standard assertive response to the "should")
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .hahaha one point for TF
TF88 . . .:)
RevRandy . . .I am intrigued by the last phrase about liberty as endowment, freedom as creation
WhiteTiger . . .two points for RR ;)
Elissa . . .i don't theeeenk so
RevRandy . . .we are at liberty to do many things -- but do we free ourselves to do them
Elissa . . .proceed, your randyness
RevRandy . . .(score me - infinity, others (whatever they think they have to or should have)
Elissa . . .o boy
WhiteTiger . . .I dunno... freedom and liberty are two faces of the same coin to me... not so separated... ie: liberty is the exercise of freedom
RevRandy . . .or is freedom the exercise of liberty?
WhiteTiger . . .oops... sorry, didn't mean to interrupt
RevRandy . . .(and I do not ask that facetiously
RevRandy . . .But what I am asking about is the inherent nature of our endowment as thoughtful human beings
Elissa . . .so randy, could you please elaborate on that brilliant and insightful thought? :)
WhiteTiger . . .liberty is what ya do... (at liberty)... freedom is the condition that allows that liberty, imo
StF . . .Well, obviously we are not free if we limit ourselves in any way
Elissa . . .but what TJ is saying i think is that you don't need freedom to have liberty
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RevRandy . . .is it that we are free to do anything -- or is that we have a wide range of opportunities, and we make a choice about what we will freely allow ourselves to use
StF . . .Iylana Vanzant says: Freedom is knowing that God believes in you....
Elissa . . .what does that mean to you, stf?
Elissa . . .welcome sandee and gls2meg
StF . . .It means that I can do anything I choose
StF . . .I dont, because of my fear of God
Elissa . . .can you do anything? in reality, can you?
WhiteTiger . . .interesting wording there StF
StF . . .If God truly is all and gives all, what is there to stop?
RevRandy . . .but why the word "fear"?
TF88 . . .fear
StF . . .God comes in many forms...
Elissa . . .well, for example i could not be a black 7-foot tall basketball player... i can't choose to be a grandmother, etc.
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StF . . .we have been taught a God of guilt...
StF . . .But a God that believes in us says He loves us enough to let us make our choices
StF . . .Even if they aren't always the "right" ones in this world's terms
RevRandy . . .not all religious traditions have a god of guilt
StF . . .I wasnt necessarily talking religious traditions
Elissa . . .yes, but our choices are limited by who we are, aren't they?
StF . . .maybe more societal..family...
sandee . . .Thanks Elissa
StF . . .By who we make ourselves to be..
WhiteTiger . . .that kinda assumes some limitations, doesn't it elissa?
Elissa . . .so stf are you saying you believe we can be whoever we want? or just that we can make the most of who we are and what we are given?
StF . . .God believing in us means we be unlimited..as He is..
Elissa . . .yes, i think so wt
WhiteTiger . . .in particular, I'm thinking of "reincarnation"... if ya subscribe to that notion, and take a long enough time line, "who we are" is remediable
StF . . .Obviously, we all experience various circumstances...
RevRandy . . .or even in parallel realities, we may be many different forms of the same spirit
Elissa . . .remediable, yes... but i also believe we are not interchangeable
StF . . .but freedom is not being limited in our choice of how we relate to those experiences
StF . . .choosing the highest good...God's belief in US
RevRandy . . .Let me try at this - if we feel that we are not alien to the spirit of creation, but are one with that spirit, then the whole range of opportunities open up to us through our attitude
StF . . .AMEN!
StF . . .10 Points for RR!!
RevRandy . . .and I speak of spiritual range of opportunities
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WhiteTiger . . .I'm still having probs with that "at one" thing
Elissa . . .ok, but the opportunities are those that are for us and not anyone else... not the same for everyone
WhiteTiger . . .the only way the words resolve for me seems contrary to experience
RevRandy . . .ok WT - I mean that I do not see myself as separate from the spirit of creation
StF . . .We are always free to choice how we will act/react to circumstance...
StF . . .God's greatest gift to us
Elissa . . .very true, stf
WhiteTiger . . .well, in one sense, ya CAN'T be separate.... ya are, ergo if ya posit a creator, ya were created
RevRandy . . .And the range of opportunities for each of us is a different set
Elissa . . .welcome toolman, we're talking about freedom
RevRandy . . .Like in physical reality -- take an element like Chlorine -- it can bond with many different other elements, but not all
RevRandy . . .and other elements can bond with some that chlorine can't -- each has its own pattern of opportunities
toolman . . .free choice is given to us all
StF . . .or TJ was saying...a person in chains whose soul is free
RevRandy . . .and freedom is an openness to one's own pattern of opportunities.
RevRandy . . .But, I offer another Point to Ponder:
Elissa . . .yay
RevRandy . . . 0,14from Terra in a discussion session:
RevRandy . . . 0,2"I used to like to ride my beautiful brown mare across our ranch lands.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It was a wonderful feeling of freedom--almost like flight.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But every so often I would run up against an obstacle... a fence would present itself.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I would stop, although I could have forced it to yield to me.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I would let it stop me; accepting my boundaries, but knowing I could still see beyond them.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I did not have to be on the other side in order to know what it looked like and what was there.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You see?
RevRandy . . . 0,2So although there was separation, there was connection and understanding.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Now, I had the gift of seeing in another way as well.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I was a psychic, as many of you here are.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But in my world and time that separated me from many whom I loved and who loved me.
RevRandy . . . 0,2They saw me as different, 'strange,' 'alien,'
RevRandy . . . 0,2and they locked me up in an asylum because they didn't know what else to do.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You see, they were defined by who they were not, and they were not like me... or so they thought.
RevRandy . . . 0,2They could not keep me there, because of course I was not crazy.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But it broke my heart at the same time it taught me
RevRandy . . . 0,2how we separate ourselves from one another by our own definitions of who we are. What a waste. (W 104)
RevRandy . . .Now in this I am intrigued with the images
TF88 . . .wow
RevRandy . . .the images of her freedom and her ability to stop at boundaries/obstacles
toolman . . .we are all one
RevRandy . . .and she could sense a freedom of being beyond the limits without having to go there RevRandy . . .since her vision was of an existence without that separation.
RevRandy . . .and so I pose a question to you -
RevRandy . . .is one measure of freedom our ability to look beyond boundaries and obstacles, to see other possibilities, even without the necessity of going there?
RevRandy . . .are we free when we can think "outside the box" even if we are in the box?
WhiteTiger . . .of course
StF . . .YES, YES, YES
sandee . . .Yes...
toolman . . .you are never not free
Elissa . . .yes, that's liberty
RevRandy . . .how does that play out in your lives -- any real life examples out there?
TF88 . . .right, liberty of the soul
WhiteTiger . . .if ya can't conceive it, ya can never experience it.. the idea is the first step of the reality
StF . . .ok...I'm dealing with emotions....
StF . . .Going through a separation..divorce... Ok..even good most of the time
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StF . . .But sometimes it seems like a death to me...and I grieve...deeply
Elissa . . .((((((stf))))))
Elissa . . .it is a grief process, stf
Elissa . . .it is a loss
StF . . .Those around me dont like that grief..and keep telling me to get over it
StF . . .and that makes me grieve more..
Elissa . . .gee that sounds familiar
RevRandy . . .I suspect many of us have felt to be in a similar place
StF . . .that they want me only to be "happy" all the time
StF . . .If they could only see beyond...
StF . . .I will be happy again...soon...
StF . . .maybe even in just a few minutes..
RevRandy . . .can you see yourself there - even if you are not there yet?
StF . . .but for now I could use their love and support to make it through this moment
Elissa . . .stf, that's because they don't want to deal with their own pain... you can show them that they can grieve and get through it without avoiding it and be ok
Elissa . . .but mostly, you need to feel what you're feeling or you'll get stuck, as they may be
StF . . .See, yes...there goes the liberty...the freedom...
RevRandy . . .I know from my own grief journey I could sense my liberation from my deepest feelings when I could envision myself living beyond the pain of loss even while I was immersed in it
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StF . . .my point in bringing up all my drama...sorry all...
Elissa . . .no apologies allowed... and no shoulds lol
StF . . .If you don't allow yourself to feel...or others to feel...there is no liberty/freedom in the relationship
fang . . .ok got a question?
RevRandy . . .sure
Elissa . . .fang, you raised your hand
fang . . .fang raises hand
Elissa . . .:)
RevRandy . . .yes fang -
fang . . .i'm watching a marriage of 42 years dissolve
fang . . .and makes me wonder
fang . . .did our parents just stay married, due to they believed the vows
fang . . . or are men and women becoming to self centered, to stay in a relationship
fang . . . and go through the hard times together
WhiteTiger . . .the latter, I'm sad to say... this is the "me first" age
Elissa . . .i know my parents' generation often made a god of duty, and stayed together because they thought they "should"
TF88 . . .I do not believe people stayed together in eras past because they were "giving" and not self-centered
StF . . .I think they were just as self centered then...
Elissa . . .marriage is very difficult... just because most people do it doesn't mean they are able to do it well :)
StF . . .Why men beat women so much...
RevRandy . . .but an underlying question is the meaning and value of marriage - as a social institution and its role in society (ah, the sociologist in me comes out)
TF88 . . .In my opinion, the divorce rate is not necessarily a negative thing
fang . . .thats a power trip
Elissa . . .i agree, tf
TF88 . . .If I had to pick, I would say bravo to people who with thought decide to make changes
TF88 . . .and actually take steps to follow through on those changes.
Elissa . . .for the children it's almost always negative, though, unfortunately
fang . . .yes
RevRandy . . .but what about when there are no children, or the children are grown?
TF88 . . .but E, if the relationship isn't healthy anyway, it's ALWAYS negative for the children, whether or not parents remain married.
StF . . .But 48 years...or my 23 says to me...they gave it a big try
fang . . . i remember when women were property of husbands, and children were too
Elissa . . .tf, i used to think that, but research says the children suffer more when there is a divorce
fang . . .because they never listen to the children
Elissa . . .yes, fang, that's something we never want to go back to
RevRandy . . .but elissa is that the natural condition for children, or a product of society's attitude about divorce. etc
fang . . .they are still seen as property
RevRandy . . .hey folks - before I get a divorce, I better announce a break ...... for about 10 minutes - keep on talking - we'll be back with some more provocative questions from Rikkity herself
Elissa . . .randy, children always blame themselves when they're young and that has nothing to do with society... it also disrupts their sense of identity... a grief process akin to the death of a parent
fang . . .i remember when domestic abuse was a family secret
TF88 . . .children blame themselves usually for any domestic problems between the parents
fang . . .just like child abuse , or incest
Elissa . . .bbbbbbrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkk
RevRandy . . .fighting, divorce, poverty, disease
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fang . . .ok sorry
StF . . .so..in each case..the children need love and support...
sandee . . .I was once told that relationships are like an old 45 record. You liked it for the "good" song on one side and got the "bad side" too.
RevRandy . . .and maybe kids need multiple structures of love and support
fang . . .yes i agree
TF88 . . .I even wonder sometimes if children of divorced parents actually get heard more.
StF . . .There ya go..RR... I'm up for that one!
fang . . .no, i don't think they ever get heard
RevRandy . . .and the old extended families are only one model - and there must be many more that we have yet to explore
fang . . .sometimes like kids of non-divorced parents, they tend to tune kids out
StF . . .Saw a show one time...about tribes in Africa..I believe..
StF . . .where the entire community considered it their duty to raise the children
fang . . .and thats the real truth
StF . . .with love, etc...
StF . . .Now THAT's a system!
sandee . . .Sounds like the way churches and their congregations and families used to act.
Hypernoodle . . .I remember the children's book about that....the entire village raised the children
Hypernoodle . . .It was on our list to read to our students
TF88 . . .yeah, but do the women still do all the cooking Stf??? LOL
fang . . .if all around take some responsiblity, the kid has a full structure to fall back on
RevRandy . . .agreed - and such systems usually arose when natural circumstances (death, etc) meant that the average child would be raise with the loss of one or more parents
sandee . . .amen fang...
fang . . .sad to see what's happening in africa
RevRandy . . .and maybe the natural circumstance of today (divorce) call for a similar system in our society today
sandee . . .We are living in a society now with both parents working normally anyway....
StF . . .yes, with the loss of the extended family...
StF . . .and churches...other organizations...
fang . . .if the collective would help raise the orphans ,,,, then their would be less orphans
StF . . .It becomes important to support those things that provide for children
RevRandy . . .are children the property and hence the responsibility of a single family unit, or are children the future of the whole culture/society/world?
fang . . .too bad we can't get some of those children adopted in the usa and other countries
sandee . . .and our own children taken care of too....
fang . . .whole culture/society/world
fang . . .imho
RevRandy . . .I think we need to see that it is impossible to move into a meaningful future separate from the futures of others
sandee . . .So....what we are doing now is seeing beyond the "fence"
RevRandy . . .and so our lives and the lives of "our" children must intertwine all others
fang . . .but how can we get the masses to agree about childrens issues
RevRandy . . .so, as we wait for elissa to come back from break ....
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmmm
WhiteTiger . . .is ANYONE property of anyone else, even children?
fang . . .when they won't even accept different religions, as different paths to god
RevRandy . . .must we agree - or should we all do what we can with our own vision
RevRandy . . .(I meant "our" quite facetiously
RevRandy . . .sorry about that should
*** etherigal (pams@***.la.networkone.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
StF . . .masses won't ever agree but "where 2 or more are gathered"
RevRandy . . .yes - action with vision is more likely than agreement
StF . . .it begins with each of us..
fang . . .but i try to see different ,, as a choice someone makes
WhiteTiger . . .it ends there too, StF
fang . . .and accept it
WhiteTiger . . .responsibility can't be shared, nor handed off
StF . . .???? wt
RevRandy . . .and that also means that others will not tell me that I cannot act in certain ways (don't get me started on restraints on international family planning when I see such programs as so necessary)
RevRandy . . .But anymoo
Hypernoodle . . .I think I agree Tiger....mark that on the wall :)
WhiteTiger . . .lol
fang . . .but it can wt,,,,
fang . . .responsibility can be shared
*** Elissa_brb is now known as Elissa
RevRandy . . .OK - here is what Rikkity said to us about this evening:
RevRandy . . . 0,2On the 16th you will celebrate Bastille Day and take a look at the concept of freedom.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We've all said a lot about that so discuss it... in relation to
RevRandy . . . 0,2one's inherent freedom and the vagaries of life and death.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Freedom has to do with response not always with choice.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I think there is enough there.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But with these questions:
RevRandy . . .(and yes, we know that Bastille Day was on Friday --- but the celebration continues)
RevRandy . . .but here is one of those questions:
WhiteTiger . . .sorry fang... all I've ever seen handed off is an illusion.. the individual still holds the responsibility, and eventually pays the tab, like it or not
RevRandy . . . 0,2When your loved one died, did you feel free or a lack of freedom?
RevRandy . . .any responses?
Hypernoodle . . .both
Elissa . . .initially a lack of freedom
RevRandy . . .how so
sandee . . .Lack of in the beginning....then freedom
WhiteTiger . . .I felt neither
fang . . .freedom of their pain
Hypernoodle . . .I was free of waiting for the death to come, and the lack of freedom came from not being able to stop the death
RevRandy . . .anyone want to elaborate from his/her experience
WhiteTiger . . .when Barbie died, it's something that just was
fang . . .but loss of freedom ,,, in that they were gone
Elissa . . .hmmm... feeling a lack of freedom is feeling a lack of control?
Hypernoodle . . .in that case
Hypernoodle . . .I could not stop the death that was coming
RevRandy . . .is control having choice/opportunities available
Hypernoodle . . .in this case information would have given more choices
Hypernoodle . . .more options
fang . . .i knew i couldn't stop that,,,,,,,,their death
Elissa . . .a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, confusion... that's what i felt at first too
fang . . .amen elissa
Hypernoodle . . .after it was over, I could put a period to it
fang . . .abandonment
Hypernoodle . . .it was the waiting for it to happen that made it feel out of control
sandee . . .Yes Elissa
Elissa . . .yes fang, and all those "why" questions
WhiteTiger . . .inteeresting... why would you wish power, and in what manner was it denied or revoked?
fang . . .and if only's
Elissa . . .power to keep the person here and alive and thus the relationship continuing
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmm....
StF . . .But you know...since I've accepted the idea that God knows better than I...
sandee . . .I don't think it's a wish for power, I think it's an unwillingness to let go
Elissa . . .we think the loss of the person means the loss of the relationship and our identity as it relates to that
StF . . .that gives me a lot a freedom...
fang . . .yes
StF . . .less worry...
WhiteTiger . . .how can a loved one be lost? (serious q)
Hypernoodle . . .I don't think they are lost, Tiger
Elissa . . .yes, stf... hopefully loss teaches us to let go, because we really have no choice
WhiteTiger . . .me either... that's why the q
Hypernoodle . . .They are just not so easily accessible to me in this manner :)
RevRandy . . .aha - WT - that is a learning that comes through confronting the loss
WhiteTiger . . .not for me, RR... it was never my loss...
fang . . .like when a vet i use to work for was killed by a drunk driver(teenage) along with wife and 2 sons
RevRandy . . .for some of us our ability to move beyond our sense of loss was our ability to feel free to open ourselves to not seeing them as lost
fang . . .i use to only see those things on tv
Elissa . . .:) hyper, not a problem for me, i see now lol
WhiteTiger . . .the tie remains, always. all that happens is the manner of it's expression changes...
sandee . . .I agree RR
Hypernoodle . . .lol....I know the feeling Elissa
fang . . .and now it is very personal to me
Hypernoodle . . .it brought about new things to me
Elissa . . .yes, wt, and that is a loss... or a change, if you like that term better :)
Hypernoodle . . .I like change better
Hypernoodle . . .because I do not think life energy ceases to exist
TF88 . . .how about BIG change
Elissa . . .lol tf
RevRandy . . .What I am observing is that there is a great range of response on this question --- that some felt a loss of freedom, some felt freed, some felt freed to move into new ways of relating -- so loss itself does not hold the issue of freedom, it would appear, but our response to it
WhiteTiger . . .I like change better... the flour, eggs and such aren't lost when the cake is baked... it's just not in the familiar form anymore
Hypernoodle . . .right
Elissa . . .that's quite an image, wt... i'm seeing rikkity with flour and eggs all over her
Hypernoodle . . .lol
StF . . .lol
RevRandy . . .(WT - yes - but I have to admit I remember that old line about how flour and milk make paste, but when you add sugar and eggs you get cake --- where did the paste go?)
Hypernoodle . . .Did she cook like me then?
Elissa . . .she loved to make eggs
WhiteTiger . . .and continuing with that one, the "loss" thing seems to be a matter of personal comfort... "I want it the way I know it"
Hypernoodle . . .:)
StF . . .so..it's only the FORM we wanted to keep...
StF . . .and the loss of FORM we grieved...
Elissa . . .comfort is an apt word
RevRandy . . .or we wondered if the changed reality would still holding meaning for us
fang . . .hard to get a hug from spirit
fang . . . the physical sense
TF88 . . .let us remember though that loss is not only with one who died. Sometimes we grieve for one we have lost who is still alive
RevRandy . . .rikkity still gives great hugs!
Elissa . . .none of us like to be uncomfortable, some of us just learn to become comfortable with discomfort
fang . . .your better at this than fang though
RevRandy . . .well, here's another of her questions:
RevRandy . . . 0,2Did the world seem deterministic or still open for free will.
WhiteTiger . . .there ya go fang... the expression of the tie isn't the old familiar warm and fuzzy... and what we grieve is that we don't get to have it the way we are used to
Hypernoodle . . .I had to get comfortable with communication from a loved one who had passed over
Hypernoodle . . .never thought I would go there
Elissa . . .yes, tf, and sometimes we grieve for who WE were in the relationship
TF88 . . .yes, that is true elissa, good point
Elissa . . .surprise! lol
Hypernoodle . . .Did or does?
RevRandy . . . 0,2Did the world seem deterministic or still open for free will.
Elissa . . .for me it seemed open to free will... that's what gave me hope
StF . . .what would deterministic mean?
WhiteTiger . . .again... neither... the world remains what it is
fang . . .i'm glad you asked
Elissa . . .o wt, you're soooooo pragmatic!
RevRandy . . .deterministic - that the world is all set in advance and we cannot change how it will occur
fang . . .i was going to have to get my dictionary out again
Elissa . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .lol
RevRandy . . .tiger - do you think there is free will in the world that just is
WhiteTiger . . .of course
Elissa . . .gotcha
Hypernoodle . . .not yet
Hypernoodle . . .just wait
Elissa . . .hahahaha
WhiteTiger . . .there is also predestination... the two are not incompatible to my mind
Elissa . . .uh oh
fang . . .but with each choice, cant that change future outcome?
Hypernoodle . . .as in....we are predestined to choose a certain way
Hypernoodle . . .hehe
Hypernoodle . . .we have had this discussion
Elissa . . .i'm confused
RevRandy . . .are you saying predestination, or preordination, or pre-election, or prescience?
StF . . .naw....
Hypernoodle . . .me too :)
WhiteTiger . . .all that can be, IS, somewhere/somewhen... how can ya change what is?
Elissa . . .:)
WhiteTiger . . .(imo)
StF . . .else there is no free will...
Elissa . . .we're part of what is, so unless we don't change (and we do) then the universe changes as well... so there :P
WhiteTiger . . .free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive
Hypernoodle . . .Do you consider free will and free choice the same by definition, RR or Elissa?
RevRandy . . .I humbly beg to differ!
fang . . .boy you guys are getting deep tonight
TF88 . . .I feel our "predestiny" is in constant flux
fang . . .where are my boots lol ;)
WhiteTiger . . .lol fang
RevRandy . . .and think it is a slippery slope down which we slide if freewill and predestination are both possible
* WhiteTiger goes for a bigger scoop shovel
Elissa . . .hyper, i'm not sure... how do you define those?
StF . . .The essential elements do not change...but the combos are awesome...
Hypernoodle . . .I was reading them as the same and wanted to make sure I had not jumped out into left field again :)
RevRandy . . .for then it speaks about a creative energy in the universe that allows for some pretty awful things -- not my kind of spirit
RevRandy . . .ok - one last question from Miss Rikkity -
RevRandy . . .0,2If pizza were free would some people complain about the quality of the pepperoni.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, if grace is free do some people complain about the quality of life?
fang . . .yes
Elissa . . .all the time lol
Hypernoodle . . .for sure
WhiteTiger . . .yup.. that is where we differ, RR... we see that basic question as having different answers
StF . . .I always do...but hey...I'm trying to get better :)
Elissa . . .but i'm learning not to :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2If pizza were free would some people complain about the quality of the pepperoni.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So, if grace is free do some people complain about the quality of life?
fang . . .you know the half full, half empty question
RevRandy . . .but we agree to differ
Hypernoodle . . .I am fortunate to have furniture so I gripe about the dust that collects :)
Elissa . . .ask not whether the glass is half empty or half full, but what is IN the glass
WhiteTiger . . .of course :) that's how ya learn new memes, right? ;)
Elissa . . .(misquote from one of rikkity's friends)
Hypernoodle . . .memes?
Hypernoodle . . .I like it Elissa hehe
RevRandy . . .memes - I have new ones right here -- cute blue ones
Elissa . . .ty hyper
WhiteTiger . . .mmmm... sorta like "concept", hyper
Hypernoodle . . .thanks
*** Jackie (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa . . .ok, my turn again... or MW's...
Hypernoodle . . .as in assimilate data?
StF . . .I just see it as pushing the status quo...
Elissa . . . 0,2MW:
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"Here's some words of a more serious nature for those of us women who have
Elissa . . . 0,2lived with loss. One must find ways not to make the losses their lives...
Elissa . . . 0,2really should have said 'her life.' We have choices. We can make our lives
Elissa . . . 0,2synonymous with the loss, or we can see ourselves as victims of the loss, or
Elissa . . . 0,2we can ignore the loss at our great peril, or we can live through the loss
Elissa . . . 0,2and learn and discover there is just as much meaning--albeit different
Elissa . . . 0,2meaning--on the other side of loss.
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"The struggle is to keep hold of life even in the face of death. Too many
Elissa . . . 0,2lose their way and get stuck in time, or else lose life itself. If you take
Elissa . . . 0,2it personally you have lost too much. I do believe in a God of love and
Elissa . . . 0,2mercy, but a very impersonal God of love and mercy who set forth those
Elissa . . . 0,2qualities in the human soul as living remnants of the divine for each of us.
Elissa . . . 0,2When bad things happen, that is not God; that is the flow of nature. But in
Elissa . . . 0,2those times when bad things happen, the vision of life and love and mercy
Elissa . . . 0,2that allow us to continue with meaning, there is God.
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"We speak so often of God the Creator. That role is long gone but God the
Elissa . . . 0,2Redeemer lives--not God the Redeemer of afterlife but God the Redeemer of
Elissa . . . 0,2life--caught in the spark of hope that lights the dark passages of Earthly
Elissa . . . 0,2existence. To not see that spark; to sit in the darkness of sorrow, despair,
Elissa . . . 0,2denial, is to miss God.
Elissa . . . 0,2
Elissa . . . 0,2"So to all living with loss I say, have faith the loss was not personal but
Elissa . . . 0,2the discovery of life beyond loss is very personal and ultimately divine. I
Elissa . . . 0,2bid you farewell and hope born of faith." (2/7/97 - W#57)
Elissa . . .looking at this in relation to our topic of freedom, there is a question
Elissa . . .that comes to my mind: are we victims of loss? since we cannot do anything
Elissa . . .to guarantee that we will not experience losses, does that mean we are not
Elissa . . .free? or does our freedom lie in our ability to respond to our losses...
Elissa . . .clutching to them with despair and denial as they depart from us, or
Elissa . . .accepting them and with them the challenge to hold onto--not the losses--
Elissa . . .but the faith and hope that makes meaning from them... without that faith
Elissa . . .and hope that leads us toward the discovery of the way in which we are truly
Elissa . . .free, our losses become our chains...
StF . . .Thank you Martha! and Elissa...
Elissa . . .using our free will to see God's love
Elissa . . .and creativity in every experience is to see God as the Redeemer of Life...
Elissa . . .what are your thoughts about this?
* WhiteTiger bites tongue
Elissa . . .thank you, stf :)
StF . . .draw blood???
Elissa . . .lol wt, don't bite too hard
StF . . .I LIKE it...I *try* to live by it..
WhiteTiger . . .{--- making effort to be good
StF . . .Gives me hope...
StF . . .BE GOOD!!!! lol
Hypernoodle . . .pat pat
WhiteTiger . . .lol
* Elissa is very proud of wt's restraint, but does not expect it to last
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
StF . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .Well, I would rather him get it off his chest in here than after!
Hypernoodle . . .hehe
Elissa . . .actually i don't want it to last lol
Hypernoodle . . .spread it around so to speak
RevRandy . . .WT - speak
WhiteTiger . . .arf
Hypernoodle . . .ruff
fang . . .yours is meow wt
fang . . .or roar
Hypernoodle . . .we have talked about this so much since we met
Elissa . . .mooooooooooooooo
fang . . .but we'd love to hear your opinion wt
Elissa . . .tell us more, hyper
Elissa . . .hey jackie! (just saw you up there)
WhiteTiger . . .to me, the "god is love" boils down to nothing less and nothing more than casting human judgement on the creator... and I have seen none on two legs that are remotely qualified for that job
Hypernoodle . . .we circle and circle and get no closer to an opinion we can share about "loss"
Hypernoodle . . .yep...this subject too
fang . . .amen wt
Jackie . . .Hi I thought I tuned into Ole MacDonald had a farm for a minute
Hypernoodle . . .lol
RevRandy . . .OK - Tiger - can we also agree that God is not hate, nor punishment, nor guilt - which are also overlays from human constructs
WhiteTiger . . .that WE find something "awful" or "horrible" is nothing but the world that is seen through our limited perspective
Elissa . . .ok, wt... i see energy as being love, and if god is all that is, then that flow of energy as love is god
WhiteTiger . . .to my understanding, the creator is ALL... period, no exceptions at all
StF . . .And I still see each as a *choice* we make..and I'd rather choose Love...
fang . . .and when we pass, we become our own judge and jury
Elissa . . .if we need that, fang
StF . . .And I dont see Love as an illusion..
RevRandy . . .all implies more than just human notions - something more inclusive than any theology
StF . . .But I do see hate as illusion...
WhiteTiger . . .exactly, RR
Hypernoodle . . .why?
fang . . .well that if we did good we see the good it passed along
TF88 . . .hmmmm...what is "good"?
fang . . .and if we did bad, all the bad it created in the ripple effect
fang . . .that we feel what pain we've caused others, and joy
RevRandy . . .in an SP viewpoint, hatred/evil is does not persist
fang . . .like smiling at a stranger
fang . . .helping someone
WhiteTiger . . .I see it all as illusion, StF... we experience only a tiny tiny slice of what is, even just here in 3D... and from the partial puzzle pieces, we tell ourselves we see the whole
StF . . .obviously...good...has comparative values
RevRandy . . .well - folks, taking away your freedom - I want to offer a final PtoP tonight
StF . . .I wouldnt kid myself that I see the whole...
Elissa . . .just because it's an illusion doesn't mean it isn't real :)
RevRandy . . .and this one comes from an intriguing source
StF . . .agree with you there...
RevRandy . . .ok
RevRandy . . .ready for it
StF . . .That's why I believe in a loving God
RevRandy . . .let's see smiling faces looking up here
Elissa . . .:)
RevRandy . . .Tiger - leave Hyper alone
WhiteTiger . . .lol
StF . . .:)
Hypernoodle . . .lolol
RevRandy . . .good
RevRandy . . . 0,14and from Selene (a former incarnation of Rikkity):
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"I was a dancer.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I loved the dance and it filled and fulfilled me.
RevRandy . . . 0,2There was a stupid tribal war of sorts,
RevRandy . . . 0,2and I was taken as a slave in the hopes that the enemy would be appeased and leave my people alone.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So I was the sacrifice, if you will.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I was torn away from my homeland and given to those who hated me, but very few could hate my beauty.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . .0,2I could have become bitter, I could have become tired and sullen and shrewish;
RevRandy . . . 0,2but I did not become my identity as a slave because I was always who I was.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I did not stop dancing just because I had been separated from the land I loved to dance in.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Are you beginning to understand?
RevRandy . . . 0,2The dance was who I was, no matter what they told me I was.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And when I danced I was free.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And that, in the end, is what set me free!
RevRandy . . . 0,2You see, when my beloved Joseph saw me dance, he loved me and saw who I was and that I could not remain in slavery.
RevRandy . . . 0,2He bought me and then set me free, not because of who he was--
RevRandy . . . 0,2though he was a kind and loving soul--
RevRandy . . . 0,2but because I, in remaining true to myself, was who I was and who I was was free!
RevRandy . . . 0,2I was not my role.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I was not what everyone said I was.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I was not what I wanted to be.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Listen to this: if I had been who I wanted to be--which was free--then I would have behaved quite differently.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I might have become quiet and subservient.
RevRandy . . . 0,2I might have asked meekly for attention or favor.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Joseph would probably not have even noticed me then.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But in being who I was in the moment, I set myself free. (W 124)
Hypernoodle . . .Good one!
RevRandy . . .If I read Selene correctly
WhiteTiger . . .ditto that
RevRandy . . .she is saying that we are who we are, and our freedom is in seeing that, accepting that, and being that
RevRandy . . .and nothing outside of us (loss of anything - life, love, liberty) should keep us from that essence
RevRandy . . .(And those who have read other PtoPs about Selene will know I have a very special affection for this point)
WhiteTiger . . .heck... nothing outside of us CAN keep us from the essence of ourselves, imo
RevRandy . . .righto
RevRandy . . .and if the dance is Selene's essence - then what is yours?
StF . . .Good question...
Hypernoodle . . .hope that is rhetorical
RevRandy . . .I know mine to be questing -- looking, searching, thinking, imaging
WhiteTiger . . .only way I can see that occurring is a choice made internally.. perhaps for reasons of external origin, but the choice is always ours
RevRandy . . .nope - it is not rhetorical
Elissa . . .i've been watching Life Is Beautiful, and its theme is similar... be who you are no matter what and that will sustain you through anything
Hypernoodle . . .well, everyone else can go first then.....I'll wait until the room closes and tell my answer LOL
WhiteTiger . . .lolol...
StF . . .What if we dont like who we are
Elissa . . .hyper, you're just asking for demerits!!!
Hypernoodle . . .bring
Hypernoodle . . .'em on hehe
WhiteTiger . . .sic 'er, Elissa!
Hypernoodle . . .this is pretty weird
Elissa . . .oooooo you're cold, wt rofl
RevRandy . . .StF - I think our essence is beyond liking -- and if we do not like who we are being, maybe that is just a role, not an essence
WhiteTiger . . .;)
StF . . .God I hope so!
Hypernoodle . . .I like my "essence" .... it is just different lol
RevRandy . . .But is can be easy to mistake roles for essence
WhiteTiger . . .I think I'll follow hyper and wait a loooong time to post my reply
RevRandy . . .most of us in fact are taught and encouraged to do just that
RevRandy . . .I think you two should post simultaneously
Hypernoodle . . .lol
Elissa . . .hyper if it wasn't different it wouldn't be a necessary part of the universe
Hypernoodle . . .I can give you an example of what I am.....would that help?
WhiteTiger . . .heck, we each know what the other is gonna say
StF . . .Yes, now we're all waiting with baited breath!
TF88 . . .oh randy, what you said is so important...mistaking roles for essence.
RevRandy . . .and TF we do it so often - and think we are doing good (but for whom?)
WhiteTiger . . .agree, TF :)
WhiteTiger . . ."think we are doing good".. there’s that limited perspective judgement again ;)
StF . . .oh boy... what would you have us do???
StF . . .Whatever strikes us at the moment?
StF . . .And that would be okay...
RevRandy . . .play the roles - but look beneath them for that essence
StF . . .Maybe you're right...maybe that's what we do anyway...
StF . . .And suffer the truth or consequences later
Elissa . . .we are not wholly ourselves in roles, but as GW said we do gain something larger than self in roles
Elissa . . .ah, i have one more PtoP from Rikkity as a closing thought:
RevRandy . . .yay
Elissa . . . 2,9"Hey, that's life. Every slate filled with sorrow and joy. Free will is not
Elissa . . . 2,9about choosing what will happen but about choosing how one will see it. One
Elissa . . . 2,9person's tragedy is another's whatever. I cried because I had no feet until
Elissa . . . 2,9I met a man who had no Adidas, He lacked something I would never lack. But
Elissa . . . 2,9you know some people grieve the lack of things that they cannot use. Good
Elissa . . . 2,9formula for a miserable life. Like the person who wants a cat but is
Elissa . . . 2,9allergic to cats. Like duh get over it. Have an iguana instead.
Elissa . . . 2,9
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . . 2,9"I am wonderous and splendiferous and awesome. Sure there are ‘might have
Elissa . . . 2,9beens' but if I lived longer there would have been just as many. There
Elissa . . . 2,9always are. So I celebrate what was, not what wasn't. Can't pine for the
Elissa . . . 2,9concerts you miss. But revel in the memories of the ones you made. That is
Elissa . . . 2,9the wisdom of us grateful dead... and all... and even him." (5/10/2000 -
Elissa . . . 2,9G#64)
WhiteTiger . . .good one :)
Elissa . . .that was on her birthday
Elissa . . .i knew you'd like that one, wt :)
Hypernoodle . . .I knew there was a reason I wanted an iguana :)
Elissa . . .hahahahaha
Elissa . . . Free will is not about choosing what will happen but about choosing how one will see it.
RevRandy . . .So, if we have provoked thought about freedom, we have done good (and even if we have not we have done good -- since we make the definitions for ourselves)
Elissa . . .and that's what this has all been about tonight
RevRandy . . .It's been good folks -
WhiteTiger . . .bingo... it's the perception ya choose to experience that makes it good or bad
Elissa . . .so thank you all for coming, and for your VERY provocative thoughts
Elissa . . .(as usual)
StF . . .RR..are you EVER coming home??? (helping you out here, E)
RevRandy . . .but sad to say, until next week same time, same channel, it is time to part (at least cyberly)
Hypernoodle . . .Thanks for the last two PtoPs
RevRandy . . .I am coming home for someone's birthday on Thursday
fang . . .rev
Elissa . . .we can't tell you about next week, cause we don't know yet
RevRandy . . .yes
Jackie . . .best wishes for a great week
TF88 . . .night everyone
fang . . .i'm sending elissa a rottweiler to keep her company when your not home
TF88 . . .light and love
WhiteTiger . . .thanks for the forum, both of ya.. best chat going on the ozone network ;)
RevRandy . . .the cat won't like that
StF . . .Blessings...and God's Peace...
RevRandy . . .ty
Elissa . . .but here's the rainbow song
RevRandy . . .be well all -
RevRandy . . .yay
StF . . .nite
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa . . . 2,11!Elissa rainbow.mid 11,2 :o)
Hypernoodle . . .bye ya'll :)
WhiteTiger . . .anything but the barney song is ok
Elissa . . .lol fang, thank you
fang . . .night ya'll
Elissa . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .:P
fang . . .anytime
Elissa . . .i love you, you love me....
Hypernoodle . . .hehehe
WhiteTiger . . .argh
Hypernoodle . . .I am going to record that and play it when Tiger snores....a bit of behavior modification heheheh
WhiteTiger . . .lol... bout time to answer the Q, ain't it hyper?
Hypernoodle . . .don't have to
Hypernoodle . . .they are leaving!
Hypernoodle . . .lol
Elissa . . .we'll wait, hyper :)
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Hypernoodle . . .:P
Hypernoodle . . .ok....short and sweet
Hypernoodle . . .what I do is help people remove what is bugging them
Hypernoodle . . .like.....
RevRandy . . .nite all
Hypernoodle . . .helped a lady figure out she was grieving from an ambulance run
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Hypernoodle . . .had to pick up a dead baby :(
Hypernoodle . . .she held it and cried
Hypernoodle . . .but never let it go
Hypernoodle . . .I happened long enough ago she couldn't pin down what was bugging her
Hypernoodle . . .so that is what my essence has me do
Hypernoodle . . .find stuff and help people get rid of it
Elissa . . .ah, like a psychic counselor
Hypernoodle . . .yep
fang . . .kewl
Elissa . . .cool
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WhiteTiger . . .I'll make it even shorter...
WhiteTiger . . .{-- hired gun
Elissa . . .wt, you're going to have to expand on that one
Hypernoodle . . .lol
fang . . .i've got a job for you wt lol
Elissa . . .hahahaha probably several
fang . . .only one so far lol
Hypernoodle . . .I have a mean Dashund that I'll send ya, fang :)
Elissa . . .ok... we're waiting wt
WhiteTiger . . .well, despite a supposed "mission", what I really seem to do is whup up on funkies in the ozone
fang . . .i can get along with dogs, it's people i have trouble with
Elissa . . .well that's clear as swamp water
WhiteTiger . . .agree with that one fang
WhiteTiger . . .ok, how bout this: beating the snt out of nasties in astral and spirit?
WhiteTiger . . .I'm talking real *nasties*
Elissa . . .nasties are easy to deal with... just focus elsewhere and tell them "you have no power here" like glinda :)
WhiteTiger . . .the kind of things that people run into then close down all psychic abilities
fang . . .glinda the good witch ?
Elissa . . .yep
Elissa . . .remember that scene with the wicked witch of the west?
fang . . .yes
Hypernoodle . . .:)
Elissa . . .good lesson there
Elissa . . .i just shift my focus, protect myself, and poof they're gone
WhiteTiger . . .the ones I mostly "get" are the ones that have gotten to folks who tried that white light, "ya got no power" routine
Hypernoodle . . .you know what I have learned in all this.....guides are not always "guides"
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Elissa . . .wt, lots of people don't really believe it works so their fear makes it not work
Hypernoodle . . .true Elissa
fang . . .elissa tell me the glinda part your talking about??????????????
Elissa . . .fang, when glinda says to the wicked witch: "be gone, you have no power here."
WhiteTiger . . .there are things out there that are just plain not subject to command of that sort, too
Elissa . . .i don't believe that, wt... and that is said from my experience
WhiteTiger . . .ok :) what I said is from my experience too :)
Elissa . . .fear is what empowers the nasties... if you don't have it, they can't come near you
Elissa . . .also anger
Elissa . . .and other stuff lol
Hypernoodle . . .But you know that some people can't move past their fear any more than they can move past grief?
WhiteTiger . . .many, yes.. not all, at least in my experience
toolman . . .if you dont fear they cant come near you?
Elissa . . .yes, hyper... can't or won't
Hypernoodle . . .right
Elissa . . .right toolman
Hypernoodle . . .And I did not realize that sometimes they need help in booting them out until some years back
Hypernoodle . . .sometimes there is too strong a hold before they see what has happened
Elissa . . .that's true
toolman . . .if i dont fear fear i wont see the bad things when i go to sleep?
Hypernoodle . . .you know what you said about essence?
WhiteTiger . . .lol... we agree on that, at least
Hypernoodle . . .I had lots of confusion trying to dismiss all the stuff I saw and felt before I let the "real me" step in LOL
Elissa . . .toolman, if you don't fear fear, and you protect yourself, and you learn how to focus your energy away from the source of your fear
toolman . . .what shouldnt i fear?
Hypernoodle . . .Do you see bad things when you go to sleep?
WhiteTiger . . .pain, of any sort
WhiteTiger . . .pain is the bedrock fear is built on
Elissa . . .you shouldn't fear evil
toolman . . .sometimes but i good things to . its right before i fall asleep
fang . . .physical pain, or emotional pain
Hypernoodle . . .ahhhh....so it is in that time right before sleep, toolman?
WhiteTiger . . .physical, mental, emotional, spiritual... makes little diff... pain is pain
toolman . . .yes exactly
fang . . .well my body has plenty of physical pain
Hypernoodle . . .That seems to be a very good time of awareness
Hypernoodle . . .Don't know why though
WhiteTiger . . .fear is anticipation of pain, of whatever sort
Elissa . . .kiddies, i need to go, but please stay and chat if you need to
fang . . .between conscious and subconscious
Hypernoodle . . .thanks Elissa :)
toolman . . .yes
Hypernoodle . . .take care
WhiteTiger . . .nite Elissa :)
Hypernoodle . . .have a good week :)
fang . . .night elissa
fang . . . love you
Elissa . . .nite guys! love you all :)
Session Close: Sun Jul 16 23:21:31 2000

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Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 1999-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.