07/09/2000 - DOUBT AND GRIEF

Session Start: Sun Jul 09 20:37:03 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Doubt and Grief" 2,9Sunday 2,11July 9 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '
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RevRandy . . . .OK - time to get started with SP -
Elissa . . . .SP????? o that's right
WhiteTiger . . . .lmao
RevRandy . . . .so, clear away the confetti from your chair, and have a seat
* WhiteTiger crowbars Elisa out of center ring ;)
RevRandy . . . .and come on into the circle of Spiritual Persistence
Elissa . . . .nooooooooooooooooooooooo
WhiteTiger . . . .lol
* TF88 gets out the hook
RevRandy . . . .we're glad you are here
WhiteTiger . . . .lol tf88
* Elissa departs from the spotlight... kicking and screaming
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RevRandy . . . .if you are new to SP, a special welcome - with any luck Elissa will share a brief account of what we do here
RevRandy . . . .hello Terri
Elissa . . . .lol
Elissa . . . .hi terri
Elissa . . . .ok, give me a sec and i'll get the intro... those who know it by heart can sing along :)
Terri . . . .Hello (((room)))
Elissa . . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . . .Williamsburg, VA. I am a writer, medium, and published poet, and
Elissa . . . .am currently a Masters student in Community Counseling
Elissa . . . .at the College of William and Mary.
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Elissa . . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa . . . .She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
Elissa . . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . . .Ponder.
Elissa . . . .It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa . . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . . . or email Randy or me anytime. Thanks
Elissa . . . .for coming...and again, welcome! Does anyone have any questions
Elissa . . . .before we begin?
StF . . . .E, did you request communication with Rikkity, or did she start
StF . . . .coming through on her own?
Elissa . . . .stf, almost immediately after she died i felt her presence around me...
Elissa . . . .it was mutual :)
StF . . . .ty
Elissa . . . .yw
RevRandy . . . .Before we begin each session, we offer a simple invocation - please join in the spirit of these words
RevRandy . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . . .and guided in all ways gracious. Amen.
bluelight . . . .amen
StF . . . .amen
suwan . . . .amen
debryan . . . .amen
Terri . . . .Amen
TF88 . . . .peace
Elissa . . . .amen~
Elissa . . . .alright, i have something to get us started
Elissa . . . .but i just lost it lol
Elissa . . . .give me a sec to get it back
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hypernoodle . . . .Sorry to be late :)
Elissa . . . .so, let's begin with doubt and grief... after hyper gets 1 demerit :)
Elissa . . . .the process of moving through doubt is a process of
Elissa . . . .reexamining all that once was and saying goodbye to it
Elissa . . . .and letting it go, but at the same time discovering
Elissa . . . .what was essential about what it was and learning to
Elissa . . . .rediscover that essence in the present and future.
Elissa . . . .let's begin by thinking about a time when we experienced
Elissa . . . .a profound loss...
Elissa . . . .this could be a death, or a divorce,
Elissa . . . .or perhaps a move from a life-long home, etc....
Elissa . . . .think about how you felt about the future... what doubts
Elissa . . . .did you have... and please be specific...
Elissa . . . . for example,
Elissa . . . .when we moved to Williamsburg i had spent almost my
Elissa . . . .whole life in New York and could not conceive of not
Elissa . . . .being near its cultural offerings...
Elissa . . . .i doubted i could
Elissa . . . .find anything here that would make me miss that less...
Elissa . . . .and yet now i hardly miss it at all, and it feels to me
Elissa . . . .like it belongs to my past...
Elissa . . . .another example would be my
Elissa . . . .relationship with my daughter...
Elissa . . . .when she died i had severe
Elissa . . . .doubts about there being anything in the future that could
Elissa . . . .be more fulfilling for me than her hugs, laughter, and
Elissa . . . .phone calls at 3am...
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Elissa . . . .and although i still miss those
Elissa . . . .things, i have found a new relationship with her and new
Elissa . . . .fulfillment.
Elissa . . . .hey fang :)
fang . . . .hey
fang . . . . boy i must be logging up the demerits
Elissa . . . .so let's talk about the losses and what we doubted for a few minutes before we get to the PtoPs
Elissa . . . .(fang i believe you're close to the 100 mark lol)
fang . . . .oh no, does that mean i can't come then?????
beka . . . .moving from the glorious mountains and desert of Utah was a huge loss
beka . . . .a friend had called it "big nature"
beka . . . .and indeed it was. present every minute, this glory of existence right in front of you
beka . . . .and then moving to Newport News to a very good job. well, the job is very good, but the scenery doesn't bring
beka . . . .heart
beka . . . .like utah did
beka . . . .then yesterday,
beka . . . .i was at the mall picking something up, and ran into a friend from my church
beka . . . .as he was buying a piece of indian jewelry for his 85 year old father
beka . . . .and he asked me if seeing the jewlery made me homesick for Utah. and the mountains/desert.
beka . . . .no, somewhat to my surprise.
beka . . . .what i've learned:
beka . . . .there is this place inside that needs sustenance from the environment. utah gave it to me.
beka . . . .virginia doesn't yet. but something sometime will... relationships do, actually
beka . . . .that's my short tale
RevRandy . . . .ty
beka . . . .sure thing
Elissa . . . .thank you beka
Elissa . . . .i wonder whether you're still looking for virginia to give you what utah did?
beka . . . .interestingly, no.
beka . . . .because i don't think VA CAN do that....
beka . . . .so i have to let go
beka . . . .and have
Elissa . . . .ok, then you're getting there
beka . . . .and be open to whatever of nourishment emerges, knowing it will be in a different guise...
Elissa . . . .wonderful... you're willing to live with the doubt :)
beka . . . .leap of faith and openness
beka . . . .oh yes... living with doubt
beka . . . .means you are open
suwan . . . .or you have no choice
beka . . . .i believe randy mentioned "radical openness" some time back
beka . . . .important concept/phenomenon i'm still exploring
Elissa . . . .the trick, i think, is to find the essence of what is seemingly lost in what is present
bluelight . . . .how long has it been since u left Utah beka?
beka . . . .1 year
hypernoodle . . . .I agree Elissa
beka . . . .insightful, elissa
RevRandy . . . .radical openness has to be without any strings or even safety nets
beka . . . ."seemingly lost"
bluelight . . . .after a couple more years if u went back to Utah u would miss where u r now
beka . . . .ah yes, no strings or safety nets. freefall
beka . . . .i dunno, good question blue... tho i had the sensation of deep nourishment in utah, that i don't have from the environment here....
WhiteTiger . . . ."loss/lost" are states of mind, imo... what is, was, is now, and will be... far as I can see all that can change is where and how we put our awareness
bluelight . . . .hard to imagine but it's happened to me several times
suwan . . . .well that's fine for change that you choose, sounds great, what about change that you didn't choose
beka . . . .oh. ok!
Elissa . . . .hmmm... what i've found is that we don't need to lose everything, just need to change our focus on what it meant to us
hypernoodle . . . .Kind of what Tiger said?
WhiteTiger . . . .Elissa :)
hypernoodle . . . .I learned that with my child, Nikki
Elissa . . . .suwan, the essence of the place/relationship you lost is still there because it will always be part of you... and that's where you start
WhiteTiger . . . .all that really shifts is the expression of the things or people relative to us... the relationship remains, hence it *is*
Elissa . . . .yes, wt... what you said lol (just saw that)
hypernoodle . . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . . .lmao
hypernoodle . . . .gmta
beka . . . .or alternatively, elissa, the capacity to connect inside that way is indeed INSIDE you, and you take that wherever you are
Elissa . . . .i'm off in my own little world here lol
WhiteTiger . . . .{-- natural camouflage... easy to miss *G*
RevRandy . . . .yes beka - it is not the outside coming in, but the inside projecting out
Elissa . . . .rofl!
hypernoodle . . . .sometimes the loss is in the way we thought things would be.....a changing of reality
beka . . . .exactly, rr
suwan . . . .no it's not
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Elissa . . . .yes beka
RevRandy . . . .....thought things would be ... so it is not that they were that way, only that we expected them to be that way?
hypernoodle . . . .right RR
WhiteTiger . . . .yeah.. reality has a nasty way of intruding into the ivory towers
hypernoodle . . . .hmmmm
Elissa . . . .hyper, that's one of the hardest parts to deal with... the loss of what we thought would be in the future
bluelight . . . .:(
hypernoodle . . . .You know that time when you are expecting a child and you have all sorts of plans and dreams?
Elissa . . . .suwan, what's not?
Elissa . . . .or a grandchild
hypernoodle . . . .right
beka . . . .never had a kid... but have friends who have
hypernoodle . . . .Then when reality is there....sometimes the dreams and plans change or you falter
hypernoodle . . . .Nikki is my only child
hypernoodle . . . .When I was pregnant, I had all sorts of thoughts of her doing the things I did....music, horses, etc.
hypernoodle . . . .When she was born, the dreams and plans altered to her staying alive
hypernoodle . . . .The wise old doctors gave her 5 years at the most... in a vegetable state
hypernoodle . . . .She will turn 19 this August
hypernoodle . . . .Ask Tiger.....she is not in a vegetable state LOL
WhiteTiger . . . .lmao... not hardly ;)
Elissa . . . .and you clearly are in love with her :)
hypernoodle . . . .yep :0
hypernoodle . . . .;)
hypernoodle . . . .We are one in the same.
hypernoodle . . . .tough on Tiger...but he is tough LOL
Elissa . . . .and so the dreams and hopes have changed... but what were their essence?
hypernoodle . . . .I am thinking about her
hypernoodle . . . .that we share life
hypernoodle . . . .and we have shared more of life than I could have imagined
Elissa . . . .so doing the things you did (music, horses, etc.) were really about sharing life and who you are
WhiteTiger . . . .just didn't get to be the sort of sharing ya had in mind... turned out the "disappointment" handed ya more than you could have imagined, right?
hypernoodle . . . .those things were a part of who I was.......she is part of who I am to the core......just as she is :)
hypernoodle . . . .right Tiger
Elissa . . . .beautiful
WhiteTiger . . . .the creator plays fair, by definition ;)
RevRandy . . . .if we only got what we thought we wanted, we would miss out on so much
hypernoodle . . . .yep....for sure in this case :)
Elissa . . . .hey that sounds like a PtoP :)
hypernoodle . . . .Do you know what we share that I thought was not possible?
Elissa . . . .so true
RevRandy . . . .what
hypernoodle . . . .Seeing beyond this 3D reality........
hypernoodle . . . .I would have never thought that possible :)
Elissa . . . .very cool
beka . . . .what do you mean hyper?
RevRandy . . . .coooool
hypernoodle . . . .lol.....
hypernoodle . . . .Makes Tiger crazy
hypernoodle . . . .We do mostly mental telepathy since she is non verbal
Elissa . . . .you mean crazier
hypernoodle . . . .She figures and always figured Tiger should be part of that
beka . . . .ah, ok
hypernoodle . . . .Figure he was a retard since he could talk in his head LOL
hypernoodle . . . .naw Elissa
hypernoodle . . . .We are about the same crazy hehe
hypernoodle . . . .But the two of them taught me a lot too
RevRandy . . . .I think about all of this in relation to our thoughts about doubt and grief
hypernoodle . . . .That you can't expect everyone to communicate the way we do
Elissa . . . .lol that touches me because when ericka was little she used to try to communicate with me that way and i discouraged it :( wanted her to learn how to talk
WhiteTiger . . . .lol... when I got here, Niki expected to just think at me, like she does with hyper... now she just figures I'm retarded and makes allowances *G*
hypernoodle . . . .But you know?
RevRandy . . . .and want to pose a question (unless someone else has a story to share)
hypernoodle . . . .Nikki and I have walked about the same path so it is okay
Elissa . . . .o i guess we need to let randy talk... is that ok with everyone? :)
hypernoodle . . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . . .lolol
hypernoodle . . . .I guess.........
debryan . . . .yes, ok with me
fang . . . .yep
RevRandy . . . .no - don't let him talk
bluelight . . . .umm maybe
Elissa . . . .o we have a dissenter
Elissa . . . .we'll think it over and get back to you randy
RevRandy . . . .ok
bluelight . . . .hahaha
* WhiteTiger rummages for duct tape... (well he ASKED)
bluelight . . . .u guyz so funny
RevRandy . . . .I was wondering - is it that a loss creates both doubt and grief in us, or is the doubt about essential things a product of the grief
hypernoodle . . . .I vote for the last half
fang . . . .maybe some of us have both
beka . . . .GOOD Question!
bluelight . . . .got me on that one
RevRandy . . . .why so?
TF88 . . . .loss is change and with change can come doubt
hypernoodle . . . .because I have never felt grief without doubt
fang . . . .doubt before grief, and alot after
hypernoodle . . . .hmmm.....the doubt hit first
hypernoodle . . . .then the grief
hypernoodle . . . .hmmm
hypernoodle . . . .I don't think that is what you said though
RevRandy . . . .hmmmmm?
bluelight . . . .RevRandy u're suggesting doubt was there before the loss?
hypernoodle . . . .I have not had the grief hit without the doubt first
RevRandy . . . .OK - let me say some more
debryan . . . .my grief is still so fresh that i'm not sure about my doubts
RevRandy . . . .debryan - can you say some more about this?
beka . . . .grief is an emotion, seems to me, and doubt, more of an attitude/cognitive stance
debryan . . . .i just lost my Mom in april,,,,
Elissa . . . .((((((debryan)))))) i'm so sorry
bluelight . . . .no don't think u were saying what i said
fang . . . .fang's been the doubting type since small
RevRandy . . . .(((((debryan))))) - that is so recent
debryan . . . .yes, and so sudden....totally unexpected and I was with her at the end
beka . . . .oh my.... it's so important you were with her...
hypernoodle . . . .I agree beka
RevRandy . . . .how was that for you
debryan . . . .hard
Elissa . . . .of course
beka . . . .overwhelming
debryan . . . .knowing now that there was nothing I could have done to save her eliminated any guilt i had
RevRandy . . . .good
hypernoodle . . . .good for that, debryan
hypernoodle . . . .Were you alone with her?
debryan . . . .the doubt i am going through right now is she was so much a part of my future plans it's hard to continue in those plans
RevRandy . . . .I can understand that
debryan . . . .yes, i was alone with her
hypernoodle . . . .((((debryan)))))
RevRandy . . . .so you have lost her and you feel like you have lost your own future too
WhiteTiger . . . .sorry... I don't follow.. I can see that plans would change... but what is the doubt concerning?
fang . . . .deb was blessed to have that ending
Elissa . . . .plans for the future
fang . . . .to be there for her
hypernoodle . . . .Did your plans involve something you were going to do together...like in business?
debryan . . . .my Mom paid the whole shot for my schooling, my dream and hers to continue on in the knowledge of computers, now I'm finding it difficult to go back to school
fang . . . .oh do it deb, i'm sure she'd want that
WhiteTiger . . . .ahhhh.. doubt of the value of continuing, after things changed
Elissa . . . .debryan, it's still so recent you're probably in shock sweetie... it will be hard for you to concentrate on school
debryan . . . .i know she would, but my concentration is shot
Elissa . . . .:)
debryan . . . .yes elissa that's it
hypernoodle . . . .Are you at a time in schooling where you can take a short break?
Elissa . . . .yes, and so it might be better for you to take a few months off
RevRandy . . . .actually your concentration is not shot, it is just being used elsewhere -- in caring for yourself
debryan . . . .yes i chose a school where i work at my own pace
debryan . . . .and caring for my Dad
hypernoodle . . . .that is a wonderful opportunity then debryan
Elissa . . . .good, that will help
debryan . . . .i live next door and look after some health issues that he has also
Elissa . . . .debryan just make sure you look after yourself, too... otherwise you will have no energy for anyone else
RevRandy . . . .but the loss in one area causes you to doubt in other ones, and your grief is not simple -- it is about all of that put together
debryan . . . .yes, i am aware of that, and doctor has put me back on antidepressants
hypernoodle . . . .sometimes antidepressants cause a loss of concentration also, debryan
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Elissa . . . .ok folks, we're going to take a short break and come back with PtoPs
RevRandy . . . .we are going to take a break from the formal proceedings for about 10 minutes - and then I will be back with some Points to Ponder for us to ponder
RevRandy . . . .but keep on talking and being with each other
Elissa . . . .please continue to chat... and randy will continue to repeat what i say lol
journey . . . .ok, Hi Elissa and Rev and all
hypernoodle . . . .lol
Elissa . . . .hey journey!!!!
TF88 . . . .hi journey
suwan . . . .lol
bluelight . . . .lol
Elissa . . . .we're just going on break
suwan . . . .we'll try to keep your words on our lips as well E!
WhiteTiger . . . .mmmmm
WhiteTiger . . . .{--thinking
Elissa . . . .as well you should, suwan lol
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bluelight . . . .trying to figure if doubt is result of loss or grief ..
WhiteTiger . . . .part of the function of the place, debryan.. discussion and healing
bluelight . . . .does it matter i wonder..
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RevRandy . . . .or is grief the result of doubt ... and loss is a physical manifestation of doubt --
fang . . . .i had doubts before my parents passed, they just got more out of control after they passed
bluelight . . . .grief i think is result of change
RevRandy . . . .can we truly doubt without going through some grieving over what we choose to lose from certainty by asking beyond it?
bluelight . . . .as per usual RR u have my head spinning again :0
WhiteTiger . . . .I'm fascinated with the notion of doubt itself... feels to me as though there is a single fundamental doubt underlying all the examples given, and those I can think of
debryan . . . .yes, i know that change, what is hard is how to change and the unknown about where the change is taking me
RevRandy . . . .isn't change a form of doubt -- as the known is taken from its throne, and nothing is there yet to replace it
bluelight . . . .then doubt had to b there before the loss?
Hypernoodle . . . .I only get doubt when I don't listen to myself
WhiteTiger . . . .change can spark doubt... don't know that he two share identity
RevRandy . . . .debryan - that relates to what beka said earlier - about radical openness- letting it take us where it will
RevRandy . . . .doubt can also spark change
WhiteTiger . . . .yes it can :)
Hypernoodle . . . .gotta agree there
debryan . . . .yes, letting go of our expectations and letting life live itself out......a wondrous feeling......if only it could be so easy
WhiteTiger . . . .doubt is not always a negative... can be the venue for positive change just as easily
debryan . . . .that's so true WT.......
Hypernoodle . . . .yep
RevRandy . . . .but when we are in safe, comfortable position where we could more easily do it, we don't -- and then in the midst of profound loss without many safety nets, we are forced to do it
bluelight . . . .doubt is an in between thing i think
debryan . . . .one thing I have no doubts about though........really interesting story
RevRandy . . . .WT - hold that thought for a few moments - until we come back
WhiteTiger . . . .but then, simply examining and questioning can do the same thing... doubt need not enter the picture, imo
debryan . . . .ok
bluelight . . . .it shakes us out of 'comfortable'
bluelight . . . .into growth
WhiteTiger . . . .yep
RevRandy . . . .ok - let's come back together again -
debryan . . . .wow a quick 10 minutes
WhiteTiger . . . ."comfortable"= safe/stagnant
journey . . . .can i ask question cuz i came in late..we are talking about doubt as related to dealing with grief?
RevRandy . . . .take a seat ...... and put it in the corner
RevRandy . . . .now take another seat .... no, not that one with someone in it
journey . . . .just trying to catch up here :)
bluelight . . . .WT u mean we don't need loss to shake us up just questioning.. i think i'm lost again
tmayder . . . .thanks, journey, I wondered that too
RevRandy . . . .we are talking about doubt and grief, however they relate .... and we are exploring how they relate
bluelight . . . .put what in the corner LOL
journey . . . .ok, thanks Rev
RevRandy . . . .so, everyone back, seated, ready????
Hypernoodle . . . .yes
journey . . . .yep
debryan . . . .yes, seated
Terri . . . .yep
RevRandy . . . .ok -
* WhiteTiger tuchis firmly planted
fang . . . .magical chairs lol
RevRandy . . . .here's a point from Rikkity that I think relates to what Tiger said just a moment ago:
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"To doubt the whole of existence is a prelude to moving fully into the new
RevRandy . . . . 0,2world beyond the loss." (6/17/2000)
RevRandy . . . .pithy, as she would say, and to the point
RevRandy . . . .it seems to me that in the midst of the losses we talk about here
RevRandy . . . .is to move into a realm in which the whole ground of our being
RevRandy . . . .is up for grabs
RevRandy . . . .like the bottom has just fallen out of the world as we have known it
WhiteTiger . . . .:) letting go the steering wheel
bluelight . . . .RR .. if we were that put together during a loss we would not grieve at all .. is that possible?
RevRandy . . . .and it would be easy to then doubt all that has been familiar, essential, counted-up
RevRandy . . . .and I think many of us fear that doubt
WhiteTiger . . . .(or more properly, admitting we never had the wheel in the first place)
RevRandy . . . .for we see it as negative
*** Elissabrb is now known as Elissa
bluelight . . . .if we saw the loss as positive then we wouldn't grow .. God would have to find another way to shake us .. still confused over here
RevRandy . . . .I think that loss shakes us up, but that does not mean that being shaken up, of reaching a point of profound doubt
RevRandy . . . .is necessarily bad
suwan . . . .yes and the P to P assumes that we have faith in the "new world"
WhiteTiger . . . .bluelight- I caught much grief from the wife when I failed to grieve for our daughter.. had a couple spontaneous adcs, was convinced she was well, and that was enough
RevRandy . . . .(after death communications)
WhiteTiger . . . .thx RR ;) saved me more typos
RevRandy . . . .suwan - I don't know if we need to have faith in the new world - we are not there yet
Hypernoodle . . . .I did not grieve for Mother when her body actually passed on.....but I did when her mind went years before
suwan . . . .no, that's for sure
bluelight . . . .thank u WT
journey . . . .i see suwans point in the fact that we are moving in that direction tho
RevRandy . . . .but we do need to have a hope that there can be meaning on the other side of any major change
suwan . . . .ahhh but how does hope relate to doubt
suwan . . . .aren't the two mutually exclusive
RevRandy . . . .for me (and others are more than welcomed to chime in here)
RevRandy . . . .hope is the sense that even when we move through doubt, we can reach a meaningful place on the other side of our journey
WhiteTiger . . . .mmmmmmm... given that none of us can se the whole (big) picture, it seems to me we pick and choose and imagine our "meanings" anyway... no reason that the habit won't hold on the other side of change
RevRandy . . . .leaving where we have been does not mean that we have lost every being anywhere meaningful again
Elissa . . . .i think that perhaps doubt that things will ever be the same--or as good--does not exclude hope that there will be some meaning in the future, suwan
journey . . . .i feel doubt spurs us to find truth, or rather to seek the deeper meaning
Hypernoodle . . . .hmmmm.....I just realized something
RevRandy . . . .yes
Hypernoodle . . . .I didn't hope for things to work out when I realized what was going on with Nikki.......I believed they would be fine
Elissa . . . .it's like having someone tip over a game you were playing... you start again with the hope it will be enjoyable, knowing it won't be the same game
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Elissa . . . .that IS hope, hyper :)
Hypernoodle . . . .I tend to equate hope with wishes on the b'day cake candles
Elissa . . . .ok lol
Hypernoodle . . . .lol
RevRandy . . . .hope is not a belief in a specific outcome, but that whatever the outcome we will find meaning in it
Hypernoodle . . . .ok
debryan . . . .i agree with hyper on that one
Elissa . . . .not the same as a xmas list
RevRandy . . . .I would also add another point about doubt
RevRandy . . . .doubt is, in one way, a recognition that as much as we think we see the whole picture,
RevRandy . . . .the best we do is to see only a small piece of it
RevRandy . . . .and in doubting we are not saying/feeling/thinking that we have been wrong
WhiteTiger . . . .hmmmm
RevRandy . . . .only that we have only seen part of the picture, and something in life has called us to see more of the picture
debryan . . . .i do have one area that i have no doubt in after my Mom's passing, and i attribute it to her passing
Elissa . . . .doubt expands our perspective
WhiteTiger . . . .and to me, hope has nothing to do with pie in the sky wishes.. it is the baseless belief that things will work out ok...
Elissa . . . .hope is the mechanism of change
WhiteTiger . . . .perhaps not in a fashion I can forsee or imagine, but ok, in the long haul
RevRandy . . . .yes - that is hope for me too WT
RevRandy . . . .or that I can fashion through my love/thought/senses into being OK
RevRandy . . . .well, here's another PtoP -- the last one was from recently, and this one is from close to the start of our journey with Rikkity
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"I will be there for you, but you have to do the work.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2I only guide and help. Focus on it, not me, then I can be even clearer to you.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"Grief--that's your growing edge, the area where you will need to change if you are to grow and fulfill yourself.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Transform the grief into action. I will be with you, but I can't do it for you." (12/7/95 - G#7)
RevRandy . . . .Grief - growing edge - need to change
bluelight . . . .focus on it not me .. wow is that great!
RevRandy . . . .grief is about us feeling it, although we often focus it on the one who has "left"
RevRandy . . . .and this raises the question (and it did raise it) for me - what is this grief telling me about myself and what I need to examine
debryan . . . .i know that Mom is exactly where she is supposed to be.....and my grief is all about me.....i ask for her help and I know she is helping
journey . . . .i realized for me that grief led me to much compassion in many areas of my life for others
journey . . . .it was like "i finally understood" compassion
RevRandy . . . .when we can see grief in this way - it is like we finally get it -- we see that the loss calls us to change
Elissa . . . .yes journey, for me it was that way too... i couldn't turn away from other people's pain anymore
journey . . . .exactly elissa, i felt it and it changed me for the better
Elissa . . . .and that's a way of turning grief into action
bluelight . . . .that took u such a short time .. took much longer for me
bluelight . . . .times isn't supposed to matter however
RevRandy . . . .there is no timetable - we each follow our own measure
Elissa . . . .blue, i'm not sure it ever ends and each of us moves through it differently
WhiteTiger . . . .each path is unique
debryan . . . .exactly
Elissa . . . .yep
journey . . . .this grief turned to action ties into finding the reward for having experienced grief
bluelight . . . .but your purpose is to try to help with healing and time for it
bluelight . . . .i think that's why u have these talks
WhiteTiger . . . .the marvel of it is that they can coincide for spaces of time with others...
RevRandy . . . .it also points to grief as a process, not an endpoint
bluelight . . . .u mean u're never quite over it?
RevRandy . . . .grief should be, in due time/process, pointing us on our way as rediscovered, redefined
RevRandy . . . .(oppps , "should" sorry about that)
bluelight . . . .yes i understand
debryan . . . .i felt that after Mom died she would be able to help us more now in death than she ever could in life....that's why she chose now to leave us, perhaps the time is coming that we need her more now that ever
Elissa . . . .yes journey... turn it into action and you begin to discover the essence and the meaning of the experience... sit around and mope and you only discover
Elissa . . . .your losses--over and over
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WhiteTiger . . . .hmmmm.. I wonder if it is a common goal to rediscover and redefine until we get grief out of the picture and learn to do it without the angst?
bluelight . . . .yes deb i believe this too .. now i do
Elissa . . . .sounds like grief counseling, wt :)
RevRandy . . . .we have to pass through it to get to the other side -- not avoiding it
bluelight . . . .WT i think i'm there but now and then .. the frog in the throat etc.
Elissa . . . .that's part of the process, blue
Elissa . . . .it isn't linear
RevRandy . . . .well, here's our latest PtoP on this:
* WhiteTiger looks around, thinks "isn't that what this place is about?"
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"The theme of doubt as related to loss is important.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2When profound loss occurs, people often seem to doubt everything they had taken for granted and all they had valued,
RevRandy . . . . 0,2and that's desirable. If we tried to exist in the new situation without change we'd deny the loss, and hence the prior value.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2
bluelight . . . .i think i'll always have it
bluelight . . . .but if so it's ok
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"Look, when summer goes you can only deal with winter by dealing with the loss and change--
RevRandy . . . . 0,2or else you shovel snow in a bathing suit... brrrrr.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2And sitting around moping does not a winter experience make.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2And that summer will never come again. Others will, but not that one.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2And you can't even appreciate the other summers unless you let go.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Doubt another will come as good, and then live joyously when it does... aha.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"We only start to meet the new friends in life when we stop focusing on the old and departed ones.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2You only get to the future by looking ahead. Who said that... me, that's right." (6/17/2000)
bluelight . . . .Rikkity is so cool :)
journey . . . .agreed!
Elissa . . . .:)
RevRandy . . . .not to give up was has been, but to find the way to open ourselves, albeit changed selves, to what is yet to be
WhiteTiger . . . .:)
RevRandy . . . .and without the change of grief and doubt, we would not be the different spirits that can appreciate what will now come to us
WhiteTiger . . . .infants don't run marathons.. no sense bemoaning the loss of the infant body to change... if ya could stop that "loss", ya'd never thrill to a finish line
RevRandy . . . .So, any of us relate to this in our own experience -- any of us sit out in the winter in bikinis to deny that summer is gone?
journey . . . .i just had this feeling during my deepest grief process that to express myself and be who i at least think i am, somehow honored her. corny huh?
RevRandy . . . .yep WT -
RevRandy . . . .not corny at all
RevRandy . . . .for you are you in part because of your relationship to her
bluelight . . . .that's terrific journey
Elissa . . . .journey, by expressing ourselves we express what we have been and learned from the relationship
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journey . . . .I feel that in her passing she helped me to be me. and no matter how old we get, we still seem to young to pass.
Elissa . . . .i know i learned so much more about Rikkity after her death... and so much more about what the essence of our relationship meant to me
Elissa . . . .it is soooo hard to let go of things and physical presences, but in doubt we are accepting that our life is different
RevRandy . . . .But, even as we "know" this now, in the process it can feel hard,
journey . . . .overall I think doubt is a fine experience as it leads us forward
RevRandy . . . .and I am reminded of another PtoP - and I think of it in terms of what we often say
RevRandy . . . .as we are in the middle of grief - that we would love to just be able to see clearly
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"You lose, and you win. Live in the paradox. Clarity is not all it's cracked
RevRandy . . . . 0,2up to be. Take muddy water and filter it; sure it's clear, but gone are all
RevRandy . . . . 0,2of its substance like silver and gold and all the good stuff. Getting things
RevRandy . . . . 0,2clear doesn't mean better. Just a thought." (6/15/99 - O#34)
KiKi . . . .I was looking for a psychic
KiKi . . . .somehow ended up here
RevRandy . . . .well, welcome -
KiKi . . . .thank you
Elissa . . . .we don't do readings here, kiki... just pondering and loving
KiKi . . . .I understand
RevRandy . . . .we hope you will join in thinking about some of these ideas that come from the other side
RevRandy . . . .I was intrigued when we received this -- because usually we like the idea that we can finally "clear things up"
journey . . . .you know what tho,.,.,sometimes it frustrates me that others dont seek, because of their own doubt, they just doubt
RevRandy . . . .but maybe in getting things too clear we lose other things
debryan . . . .so what you're saying is we need doubt in order to keep seeking
RevRandy . . . .you mean that doubt what will happen, and they let their doubts get in the way of seeking or seeing new things
Elissa . . . .exactly, debryan!
KiKi . . . .doubt to me means either you have no faith, or you are scared
RevRandy . . . .if we think we know it all, why look?
journey . . . .it seems some people are comfortable with doubt and not finding their own answers. they stay stagnant.
Elissa . . . .doubt is what opens us to the possibility that what we knew was not all there is
Elissa . . . .doubt is scary
RevRandy . . . .the faithful and faithfilled people I know are also open to doubt
Elissa . . . .but we need to be willing to move through that scary place, not avoid it or judge it to be wrong
KiKi . . . .I am certain of that...none of us are perfect
RevRandy . . . .amen
Elissa . . . .otherwise we get nothing new
debryan . . . .there is a positive and negative side to doubt.......positive=use the doubt to keep moving.....negative=doubt that anything will ever get better so stay there
Elissa . . . .good point debryan
debryan . . . .ty
WhiteTiger . . . .:)
journey . . . .i agree deb, but as a seeker, it still bugs me :)
KiKi . . . .I suppose it depends on whether you are discussing self doubt or doubt of other things
debryan . . . .so keep moving journey
WhiteTiger . . . .like most things, it's what ya choose to us it for that counts
RevRandy . . . .one doubt is about being open -- the other is about not having the hope we talked about
debryan . . . .:)
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"Grief is a lesson.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2It is what cracks the hard shell of our defenses and opens us to each other and to the full range of human feelings.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2It cuts into our ideas about ourselves and the world, and allows buds of growth to spring from those openings.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Those buds can grow into branches that reach out into parts of one another that we would not otherwise know existed,
RevRandy . . . . 0,2let alone be able to connect with.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . . 0,2"That's the point, you know.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Not to remain on the superficial level of connection.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Not to find common ground in lifestyles or educational experience or economic level,
RevRandy . . . . 0,2but to connect to each other through the love and understanding that comes only through pain and grief and loss.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Why it should be that way, why it needs to be that way is something I don't know.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2It just is, and it is very hard to accept.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2But depth of feeling and breadth of understanding come only through the pain
RevRandy . . . . 0,2that opens the hard surface of our hearts and reaches into where it is softer and more vulnerable and, yes, needier.
RevRandy . . . . 0,2If we didn't need each other's comfort and company and wisdom, there wouldn't be much point in connecting, would there?" (3/7/97 - G#33)
debryan . . . .well said
WhiteTiger . . . .good PtoP... but disagree with one point... (as usual)
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bluelight . . . .she is awesome
Elissa . . . .haha wt... i suppose you'll tell us what it is
RevRandy . . . .none of us is complete enough to live only in our own little world -- but to reach out from that single place is not to doubt ourselves, but to believ in ourselves
debryan . . . .what is that WT?
RevRandy . . . .yes WT
* WhiteTiger shuts up, and teases :P
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WhiteTiger . . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . . .my personal experience is that the love and understanding does not come only through pain, grief and loss
RevRandy . . . .No, there are many paths to love and understanding --
Clau . . . .very interesting ...white tiger..
debryan . . . .no, that's just one way of many WT
RevRandy . . . .but there is a type of understanding that comes through the passage through grief
Elissa . . . .yes, wt but there is a certain KIND of understanding that only comes through loss
RevRandy . . . .I would not have said that before, but my experience since Rikkity's death, and my experience with y'all, have shown me this
WhiteTiger . . . .mmmmmm
debryan . . . .yes, you hit that one on the head elissa
WhiteTiger . . . .disagree again, Elissa
RevRandy . . . .(we repeat each other again . hmmmm)
Elissa . . . .thank you deb
Elissa . . . .well you're wrong wt :P
debryan . . . .:)
WhiteTiger . . . .lol
Elissa . . . .so there lol... but continue
Elissa . . . .we will be tolerant lol
* WhiteTiger puts on the pointy paper hat and grabs the tall stool
Elissa . . . .o he's well trained!!!
WhiteTiger . . . .arf ;)
Elissa . . . .roflmao!
RevRandy . . . .It seems the evening is winding down
debryan . . . .however, there are different types of losses and the grief associated with each one
RevRandy . . . .(who said arf? sandy wants to know)
debryan . . . .the loss of my sister is so different than the loss of my Mom
RevRandy . . . .each loss is its own
Elissa . . . .every loss is different because every relationship is different
Elissa . . . .so, any last minute thoughts or disagreements? lol
debryan . . . .i've learned that we cannot learn from a loss for the next......each one has it's own set of rules, we only learn as we go through each one
journey . . . .agree deb
RevRandy . . . .just as each person we love is a different person for us
Elissa . . . .wise words, deb
journey . . . .I do think we can learn from "others" losses tho and from feeling compassion for them.
debryan . . . .ty
debryan . . . .that perhaps is the one common aspect we could learn from the accumulation of all our losses....i agree journey
RevRandy . . . .yes -our store of understanding grows, helping inform us in each new situation - if we not only learn, but remember
Elissa . . . .i think perhaps we learn more about ourselves than about others that way, journey
Elissa . . . .but that's a good thing
RevRandy . . . .Well, folks, our time together draws to a close
debryan . . . .awwwww
suwan . . . .thanks Rev and Elissa
RevRandy . . . .we will be back again next Sunday at 9 ET
journey . . . .many thanks rev and elissa
Elissa . . . .suwan, no closing grumblings?
debryan . . . .thank you everyone......pleasure meeting
WhiteTiger . . . .good R.. missed these yack sessions, the last couple weeks :)
suwan . . . .sorry I don't mean to grumble
RevRandy . . . .thanks to you all -
suwan . . . .I just don't do as well as the rest of you
Elissa . . . .thank you, everyone for your thoughts tonight!
WhiteTiger . . . .glad to see ya both back
Elissa . . . .((((((suwan)))))))
Elissa . . . .everyone give suwan a hug
journey . . . .(((suwan))) we don't always do as well as we sound either :)
RevRandy . . . .good to be back with y'all
debryan . . . .{{{{{{{{suwan}}}}}}}
bluelight . . . .thank u RevRandy and Elissa/Rickitty
RevRandy . . . .we all have our moments (days, weeks)
RevRandy . . . .be well all
Elissa . . . .we've all been there suwan... and still are a lot of the time
debryan . . . .love and peace ^j^
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
journey . . . .(((deb))))
Elissa . . . . 11,6!Elissa rainbow.mid 6,11 :o)
Elissa . . . .next week we'll talk about freedom...
Elissa . . . .let me know if you want to be on our mailing list
journey . . . .so Elissa it is back to regular schedule?
RevRandy . . . .we will be on the 16 and the 23 for sure - still discussing the rest of the summer
journey . . . .I shall try to be on time next time :), i seem to feel withdrawal after too long away from here!
Elissa . . . .we'll be on vacation in august for 2 weeks, not sure about then
fang . . . .oh no
journey . . . .ok, ty
Elissa . . . .((((journey)))))
journey . . . .It is very comfortable to ponder in here with all the peeps.
suwan . . . .goodnight all
Elissa . . . .nite suwan
*** RevRandy has quit IRC (QUIT: Leaving )
Elissa . . . .ok guys, i'm going... i love you!
bluelight . . . .we love u too E
journey . . . .nite Elissa!
bluelight . . . .nite elissa
Session Close: Sun Jul 09 23:07:08 2000

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the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
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