06/18/2000 - FATHERS

Session Start: Sun Jun 18 20:38:05 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence..
*** Elissa changes topic to ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"Fathers" 2,9Sunday 2,11June 18 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy . . .OK - simmer down
Hypernoodle . . .ok...done....being good for sure now
RevRandy . . .take a seat
Elissa . . .randy get down from there!
WhiteTiger . . .cool! free furniture :)
Hypernoodle . . .;)
Elissa . . .rofl!!!
RevRandy . . .no payment until 2002, nothing down
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
Elissa . . .do you have an internal furniture issue, wt?
Hypernoodle . . .uhhh.....what is the interest rate?
Elissa . . .o boy
RevRandy . . .48.7%
Hypernoodle . . .figures lol
Elissa . . .gonna be one of those nights
RevRandy . . .and it is solid knotty pine
WhiteTiger . . .sure do Elissa... have a devil of a time passing the stuff
Hypernoodle . . .I said I was going to be good! They won't let me!
RevRandy . . .laminate
Elissa . . .his back must be feeling better
Elissa . . .you're a victim hyper... yeah.... sure
RevRandy . . .OK - all seriousness aside -
Hypernoodle . . .yes! That's it!
RevRandy . . .it is time to start
Elissa . . .again
Hypernoodle . . .ok
Elissa . . .ok!
RevRandy . . .I'm a father -- be good to me tonight
RevRandy . . .please
RevRandy . . .pleaseeeeeee
Elissa . . .you're sitting on top of me
StF . . .((((RR)))))
RevRandy . . .so
RevRandy . . .Hey StF
RevRandy . . .Hi, and welcome to SPIRITUAL PERSISTENCE, the chat room that asks the perennial question
RevRandy . . .huh?
Jackie . . .lol
RevRandy . . .(I risk being a bit irreverent since we all seem to be familiar here --- or this familiars here)
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StF . . .It's gonna be a Loooonnngggg nite!
RevRandy . . .so, let's be serious for a moment
RevRandy . . .for our invocation
RevRandy . . .join in the spirit of these words
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RevRandy . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . .and guided in all ways gracious. Blessed Be.
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StF . . .amen
Elissa . . .amen~
Jackie . . .amen
fang . . .amen
misumatt . . .amen
WhiteTiger . . .aho
Pinky . . .amen
RevRandy . . .welcome misumatt and rainbow
Elissa . . .welcome
misumatt . . .ty
Hypernoodle . . .amen
Elissa . . .since today is father's day
Elissa . . .we will do some thinking about what that role of father
fang . . .yes sad day
Elissa . . .means to us--both in a general sense
Elissa . . .and in a personal sense.
Elissa . . .yes it is sad for some.
Elissa . . .it brings up many different feelings and thoughts in us,
Elissa . . .so let's talk about what fathers mean to us personally for a while...
Elissa . . .some of us had fathers who were loving, some did--or do--not,
fang . . .love support a person we look up to
Elissa . . .to some of us father means love or playfulness or support
Elissa . . .or money or competition or gratitude
Elissa . . .or discipline or forgiveness,
Elissa . . .laughter or harsh words,
Elissa . . .regrets and pain or happy memories and loss...
Elissa . . .and for most of us the word "father" carries
Elissa . . .with it and in it many levels of meaning.
Elissa . . .our fathers are our protectors, our adventurers, our explorers,
Elissa . . .our inventors and artists,
misumatt . . .A father/Parent, is unconditional LOVE! They love us no matter what! I miss my dad and my son. Just want to send love to both of them. Thank you DAD for watching over and taking care of my precious son Matthew!
misumatt . . .Night all
Elissa . . .ok, i'd like us to name the person in our lives
Elissa . . .who was/is father or father figure,
Elissa . . .and to tell a bit about what that means to us.
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Elissa . . .so, i'll begin, and i won't call on anyone
Elissa . . .but if you'd like to express your thoughts and feelings
Elissa . . .please do.
Elissa . . .Milton Kaufman, or "Papa",
Elissa . . .my father, Rikkity's father figure,
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Elissa . . .teacher, inventor, adventurer, playmate...
Elissa . . .we had hard times emotionally but always ended
Elissa . . .by forgiving each other and understanding a little better
Elissa . . .what we meant to each other, and i will always love him and
Elissa . . .remember his weird sense of humor :)
Elissa . . .anyone else?
WhiteTiger . . .Pop: decent, honorable, always did his duty, regardless what it cost him. Don't believe I ever saw him place himself before his family.
Hypernoodle . . .How can one say bad of the dead....so I'll just say that my dad taught me some great lessons.....I am still learning
Elissa . . .let's stop there for a minute...
WhiteTiger . . .there are details, but they all amount to that first post, one way or another
Elissa . . .the dead have told us that to not remember the bad along with the good
Elissa . . .is to not remember the whole of who they were as people, and so is to make them less real in our lives.
Elissa . . .end of lecture :)
Hypernoodle . . .I remember....I know what I do not want to bring fear and anger to others
fang . . .william h richardson my best friend, supporter of our family, my biggest supporter emotionally, even though he was working almost all the time
fang . . .he was there for me, no matter what
fang . . .he always put his family first also
fang . . .and he did his duty also, during ww2
fang . . .back when duty,, honor, meant something
eleven . . .that's so nice
Elissa . . .eleven and stf?
eleven . . .yes?
Elissa . . .oooops said i wouldn't call on anyone lol
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .i just wanted to know if you'd like to share the meaning of your father with us
eleven . . .my dad passed about 10 years ago...our relationship has grown in leaps and bounds since that time!!!
Elissa . . .lol i understand
WhiteTiger . . .lol
eleven . . .love is much greater than proximity...in life and in death
WhiteTiger . . .true :)
Elissa . . .death can certainly give us perspective
eleven . . .i used to feel so sad on father's dad...but no more!
Elissa . . .and what was his name, eleven?
eleven . . .jerry
Elissa . . .ty
Elissa . . .so our fathers seem to mean love and duty and support and friendship...
Elissa . . .and some lessons we have learned and perhaps we would not have chosen
eleven . . .absolutely
Elissa . . .but let's move on now to some specific, memorable father friends in spirit
RevRandy . . .OK - and here is where we get to follow Rikkity's instructions for the night
eleven . . .ready...
RevRandy . . .she suggested (or was that ordered)
Elissa . . .we are here but to obey lol
RevRandy . . .that we look to some of the "fathers" we have encountered through her
* WhiteTiger suppresses the kneejerk
RevRandy . . .and hear what they have said
* Elissa is proud of wt
WhiteTiger . . .lol
RevRandy . . .so, I begin with one already mentioned:
RevRandy . . . 0,2Papa:
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Hey babe, it's been a while but I've been busy. Don's good. Boy, can that
RevRandy . . . 0,2guy fly. He takes me up in jets and I take him up in props, but I can do
RevRandy . . . 0,2things he can't--like fly with no engine. Work is great but I don't have
RevRandy . . . 0,2much time for it. The beach season is now and forever. Who could have
RevRandy . . . 0,2thought. It's great all right, and no taxes.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 0,2"I'm feeling free. The whole universe is ahead. Remember when you were a kid
RevRandy . . . 0,2and everything seems possible. Well here it is. And it is there, too, but
RevRandy . . . 0,2few can see it once they grow up. We lose the language of childhood, which
RevRandy . . . 0,2is the language of dreams. Many arrive here with no memory of those images
RevRandy . . . 0,2and tools, so people like me have to give them voices.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Believe, trust, dream. Do live and enjoy. Don't make life a task but
RevRandy . . . 0,2experience it as a path of joy. If you can't see a beckoning horizon, change
RevRandy . . . 0,2your point of view." (5/14/96 - W#34)
RevRandy . . .Ok - some great and tough advice -
RevRandy . . .about what we may have lost along the way to becoming adults
RevRandy . . .a sense of what is possible - everything, so to speak
RevRandy . . .or it seems possible
RevRandy . . .for in the dream of possibility is the seed of actuality
RevRandy . . .I especially like the last paragraph
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Believe, trust, dream. Do live and enjoy. Don't make life a task but
RevRandy . . . 0,2experience it as a path of joy. If you can't see a beckoning horizon, change
RevRandy . . . 0,2your point of view." (5/14/96 - W#34)
StF . . .Can I have his name, please, so I can "quote" the last sentence??? Love it!
Elissa . . .that's Papa, stf
WhiteTiger . . .it IS all possible... but ya pay for what ya get, which is the sticking point for most folks, imo
RevRandy . . .but if you believe in abundance, then no price is too high, because you always have all the resources (love, hope, faith) you need
Elissa . . .well, everything is a 2-way street... whether you pay is a matter of what your perspective is
WhiteTiger . . .mmm... depends what ya mean by "abundance"
RevRandy . . .yet most settle for images of scarcity instead - and won't pay the price they fear will be asked
RevRandy . . .is it that we have to pay the price, or we fear we may have to pay a price beyond our means
Elissa . . .wt can you say more about what you mean by "pay"
WhiteTiger . . .sure... being rich is no big hassle... all it takes is devotion and time and energy invested... but most will hang around waiting for the lotto, and griping
StF . . .These are the things my dad taught me...that I struggle with still...attitudes that make me angry
WhiteTiger . . .same with most anything else, imo
StF . . .and the anger creates the attitude...convoluted..circular..thinking that gets you no where
RevRandy . . .are you saying people want cheap grace instead of achieved goals
Elissa . . .ah i see, you mean expectations
fang . . .i believe in abundance, but it still eludes me
WhiteTiger . . .pretty much, RR... "I'm here, I'm breathing, where are the goodies I'm owed" seems to be way popular
StF . . .Personally, I feel that I have learned that Personal Responsibility is the missing link
WhiteTiger . . .bravo, StF :)
RevRandy . . .inheritance versus achievement
Elissa . . .o yes, stf!
Elissa . . .it's a sense of something being missing, i believe, and not knowing what that is... or focusing on material things expecting them to fill spiritual needs
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fang . . .hey i'm trying but can't find a job
StF . . .no, fang..dont get me wrong...
WhiteTiger . . .hi karen :)
StF . . .I mean, "stuff happens"...and we do each create our own world..
karen . . .hi white tig
StF . . .To not blame everyone and everything else is the key...
RevRandy . . .don't mistake material things (job, house, money) with the other elements of life (fulfillment, sharing, etc)
Elissa . . .yes, that's a big one
Elissa . . .(the not blaming and personal responsibility)
StF . . .Saying that that is what my dad did,,, still does... and not a good lesson
WhiteTiger . . .those things too, are choices we make for ourselves, RR... at least it looks that way to me
Elissa . . .blaming keeps us stuck and not dealing with our own stuff
Elissa . . .so of course it's easier to do
RevRandy . . .blaming is looking backwards - which is no way to look if we want to get to the future
karen . . .I have a wonderful father...my whole life he was there, quiet and just good that is why these past 10 years he has my devotion after a stroke
Elissa . . .blaming is looking outside ourselves for what we need to be creating within and for ourselves
Elissa . . .that's wonderful, karen
eleven . . .yes, karen that is awesome...
StF . . .sorry...wasnt going to speak tonight..dont mind me...
Elissa . . .stf, i think you bring up important issues so please don't apologize...
karen . . .I have been given endless blessing to be at his side in several hospital settings and took care of him for about 4 years
WhiteTiger . . .looking backwards isn't all bad, RR. "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"... a bit of retro-reflection can be very beneficial
eleven . . .karen...your dad still living?
RevRandy . . .but the issue is focus - WT - learning means that we know it and don't need to look back any more
WhiteTiger . . .point taken... but "experienced" and "known" aren't necessarily synonymous
karen . . .yes...I visit this wonderful man in a nursing home...about 5 times a week
karen . . .love kicking butt there
eleven . . .you are so fortunate...treasure every minute!
karen . . .I sure do treasure this man
RevRandy . . .karen - i hear you speaking of giving --- which is different from feeling that things are taken
RevRandy . . .that is good
karen . . .sure...giving has no borders
RevRandy . . .abundance
karen . . .and it leaves you more filled
RevRandy . . .well, here's another visitor to our pondering
RevRandy . . . 0,2GW:
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"I was talking about regrets, and the one that comes to mind is slavery. We
RevRandy . . . 0,2 0,2know so little in our lifetimes of the larger vision. We do what seems right
RevRandy . . . 0,2and just. But I say this to your time: Those who would spend their energy on
RevRandy . . . 0,2discrediting us for our ancient faults will probably be remembered for
RevRandy . . . 0,2failing to confront the issues of their own time.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"It's easy to solve history's problems, but hard to solve one's own. Mr.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Jefferson, Mr. Monroe, Mr. Franklin and all the rest, they dealt with their
RevRandy . . . 0,2time and thus created a future. Those who deal with the past create a past
RevRandy . . . 0,2but not a future, and surely not a reality. As your EB would say, ponder
RevRandy . . . 0,2that." (6/30/96 - W#43)
karen . . .my dad is no man of great importance...sweet, simple, kind and former soldier
RevRandy . . .well, here's a theme again
RevRandy . . .about how we focus our energy and attention
RevRandy . . .and the issue of
RevRandy . . .vision
RevRandy . . .and when we focus our energy on what has been
RevRandy . . .and on the failure of personalities of the past
RevRandy . . .we rob our potential to have vision
RevRandy . . .of the future
RevRandy . . .But, what say you about GW's words?
WhiteTiger . . .seems to me it's a simple matter of choosing to look farther than "what's in it for me"...
karen . . .well all of this caring for both parents has taken some toll...hope I can finish with some of these worldly issues..but with me people come first
Elissa . . .that isn't always simple, wt... first we have to know something about who "me" is
WhiteTiger . . .that's the trick isn't it Elissa? knowing the diff twixt "me" and "not me"
Elissa . . .that sure is, wt :)
RevRandy . . .I do have concerns about those who want to do revisionist history
RevRandy . . .to show from the past
RevRandy . . .that there is a foundation for their issue in the present
RevRandy . . .as if that will make it more valid
RevRandy . . .when I keep asking if what I am doing in the present is a proper foundation for what I envision for the future
fang . . .that's kind of like the white supremicists, if they looked into their geneology they'd find there are really no true whites imo
Elissa . . .yes fang
fang . . .we're all really mixed breeds :)
Pinky . . .yes
WhiteTiger . . .lol
RevRandy . . .indeed - so next time you get the question on a form, check other, and write in mixed
Elissa . . .definitely, but we identify with externals instead of internals
WhiteTiger . . .{-- heinz 57
Elissa . . .we identify with race, nationality, religion, etc. and look to those things
fang . . .even dogs were made of different breeds way back when
Elissa . . .to give us a sense of who we are instead
Elissa . . .of finding out who we are as unique beings in the world...
Elissa . . .which is much harder to do and takes a lot of work
fang . . .i look white, but am native american, german, and still working on it
karen . . .well...dear understanding and kind ones....I enjoy the chat...and am appreciative of your time...have a sweet niece here..she needs some hugs.
Hypernoodle . . .:)
Elissa . . .and also usually takes a good number of lives
RevRandy . . .be well karen
karen . . ..and hugs to you...especially compassionate Elissa
Elissa . . .nite karen, come again
eleven . . .love to you and dad karen!!
Elissa . . .((((((karen))))))
fang . . .give her hugs from us all karen
RevRandy . . .I notice by my great-grandfather's clock that it is time for a breeeaaaakkkkkk
karen . . .;-) felt preety good...ahhhh
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RevRandy . . .back in about 10 -- but keep on chatting!!!!
Elissa . . .bbbbbbbrrrrrrreeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkk
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RevRandy . . .OK - back to serious stuff, and more from the other side
RevRandy . . .ready?
eleven . . .yep
Elissa . . .yep
fang . . .yep
RevRandy . . . 0,2TJ:
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"And a good morning to you all. Rikkity has asked me to speak about
RevRandy . . . 0,2community and vision. You wondered about how the colonies could arise as one
RevRandy . . . 0,2mass against the yoke of Britain. We had two powerful agents: community and
RevRandy . . . 0,2vision.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Too often people believe that community is based on proximity. We are in
RevRandy . . . 0,2community, they say, with those around us. But I ask you to consider your
RevRandy . . . 0,2own experience. Have you not seen a Greek, for example, who meets for the
RevRandy . . . 0,2first time another Greek. They live miles apart, but they sense community.
RevRandy . . . 0,2This is because community is different from society and culture. Community
RevRandy . . . 0,2is that circle in which we eat or partake in common, but it need not be just
RevRandy . . . 0,2those at our table. My brothers in Connecticut tasted the same meal of fraud
RevRandy . . . 0,2and oppression as I. If I were to travel as a blind man within these
RevRandy . . . 0,2colonies, I would scarce know where I was but for the accents--the meat of
RevRandy . . . 0,2the conversations being so much in common. We always need to sense the
RevRandy . . . 0,2largest community of which we are a part; and if we look only to those at
RevRandy . . . 0,2our table, we will have neglected the larger good.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"But no community ever really exists without vision. A group going nowhere
RevRandy . . . 0,2or backwards is but a mob; a group going forward is a community, for a real
RevRandy . . . 0,2community is always about growth, development, and ideals. Communities that
RevRandy . . . 0,2seek the status quo, they are prisons, not communities--prisons of souls.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"And a good holiday season to you, whatever be your holiday or season."
RevRandy . . . 0,2(12/12/97 - W#82)
RevRandy . . .I want to focus on two points in this passage
RevRandy . . .We always need to sense the largest community of which we are a part
RevRandy . . .and
RevRandy . . .No community ever really exists without vision.
RevRandy . . .This call to our universality is striking to me - for so often the call is to loyalty of a smaller nature
RevRandy . . .to specific family or clan
RevRandy . . .nationality or creed
RevRandy . . .race or philosophy
RevRandy . . .when we all participate in a commonality that is greater than any of those parts
RevRandy . . .why settle for the littler contexts when the grander ones await --
RevRandy . . .doesn't it make sense that if we truly believe that we are all part of the great creative movement of all creation
RevRandy . . .that we would seek to be closer to that oneness, rather than isolate ourselves away from it
RevRandy . . .in particulars?
RevRandy . . .And then, the concept of community being impossible without vision
RevRandy . . .a shared sense of the motion and the direction
RevRandy . . .of those who have seen a commonality
RevRandy . . .that only as one experiences motion with a group does one know if one is part of that group, or merely a spectator
RevRandy . . .watching it go by.
RevRandy . . .At least that is what I see in this. what about you?
eleven . . .there is so much to say here...each time i try to say it...i realize i need more time and space!!!
RevRandy . . .ok - take the time
Elissa . . .that focusing narrowly is counter-productive to the greater good.
Elissa . . .we shoot ourselves in the foot, so to speak, when we look for meaning in small circles
WhiteTiger . . .mmmmm... seems to me one important measure of "maturity" is just how much larger one's place of devotion is than one's self... self, community, nation, race... ad infinitum
eleven . . .well, i have been pondering losses and the truly needless sense of feeling such losses because of our connection to the whole and our community...
RevRandy . . .one of the key understandings of Spiritual Persistence is that in our growth to greater complexity we will, in future combination
RevRandy . . .often connect with those who might seem quiet alien to us now (hello alien)
RevRandy . . .eleven - interesting - can you say some more
Elissa . . .yes, please say more
eleven . . .in particular mothers/parents who lose their children...such an unbearable thought. if i can connect with their pain after such a horrible loss, then why can they not connect with the LOVE that is clearly existent for all living children?
eleven . . .i don't know if i can adequately describe this.
StF . . .Sometimes it's a matter of choice....
eleven . . .just trying so hard to heal that wound that i feel so deeply for others. i share my living baby as the daughter of all
StF . . .the pain of loss is a natural consequence of human life..
StF . . .but the decision to stay within the grief longer than necessary is a choice
Elissa . . .nicely put, stf
StF . . .but for everyone the time it takes is their journey..
WhiteTiger . . .I guess I'm just way out of step... to me grief is plainly self pity... never been able to do that
fang . . .the pain is sometimes all you have left
RevRandy . . .yes, StF - different for each
StF . . .and we need to be compassionate as fellow travelers with them
Elissa . . .loss can be helped by focusing on the abundance in our communities, eleven, but we each have to do our own work
WhiteTiger . . .even the buzz word denotes it, to me... "loss"... "what I had, I no longer have"... self interest
fang . . .have your parents passed on yet wt?
eleven . . .yes,, i know. just trying to deal with fear based thoughts.
RevRandy . . .WT - it seems to me IMHO that the process of grief work is a movement through that self-interest back to a larger world view
WhiteTiger . . .Pop is gone, StF... as is my daughter
Elissa . . .wt, loss can often destroy someone's identity... many of us in grief has used that experience to transform ourselves...
Elissa . . .it can be self-pity but it can also be rebirth
Elissa . . .but the work it takes to get there is awesome and scary
HyperBRB . . .to me it was a path to face reality
fang . . .amen elissa
WhiteTiger . . .probably Elissa, from what I have seen... just never been there myself... I have a weird perspective on the whole "death" issue
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RevRandy . . .WT- for me, after Ericka's death, it was not a matter of pity or guilt as much as questions - profound questions, about the meaning and nature of everything
WhiteTiger . . .wb Dudette ;)
StF . . .well, we are all multi level beings...
Hypernoodle . . .thanks ;)
Elissa . . .many who have not dealt with death and grief are in denail about it, and our culture encourages and reinforces that denial
RevRandy . . .denail?
WhiteTiger . . .denail? is that like a pedicure? *G*
eleven . . .yes, revrandy THAT'S what i was trying to say
Elissa . . .yeah, denail
Hypernoodle . . .de means un.....so un nail
RevRandy . . .the check is in denail
WhiteTiger . . .lol RR
StF . . .we have intellectual understanding...and varying levels of emotional
fang . . .{------------fang is the denial queen
RevRandy . . .yes - the experience meant not only questions but hard work -- and a sense of losing more than just Ericka - losing as well the world as I knew it - but through the process of grief finding the world as it is more deeply
Hypernoodle . . .Can I say something?
Elissa . . .please hyper!
Elissa . . .no need to ask permission here
Hypernoodle . . .I always thought of death as a way to get a step closer to eternal life
Hypernoodle . . .I never grieved for anyone in my life who died
Hypernoodle . . .Until Nikki was born......
WhiteTiger . . .boy, I dunno about that one, StF... emotion, as I see it, is a response to a stimulus... don't see how that amounts to "understanding"
Hypernoodle . . .knowing they only gave her 5 years at the most to live changed my perspective to that selfish state
StF . . .exactly...WT
Hypernoodle . . .I didn't want to get too close because I knew what it would mean to lose her
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Elissa . . .yes, many of us began our spiritual searching with a death... it makes us look for meaning
Hypernoodle . . .She is still with me though ...... which is wonderful
Hypernoodle . . .But I have only grieved once
StF . . .But emotion is very much a human condition...that we need to learn from
Hypernoodle . . .And that was to let someone I loved make the decision to take his own life
Hypernoodle . . .That one was hard
fang . . .my parents were my whole life, trying to learn how to live without them has been a processs
RevRandy . . .very hard Hyper - I can imagine
Elissa . . .o hyper, that must have been very hard!
Hypernoodle . . .I wanted to stop him
Elissa . . .it is a process, not a task
eleven . . .yes, rev. i am trying to think of ways to understand and accept what could be perceived as the worst loss (that of a child). by connecting with the whole we gain strength to handle all things. i send THAT healing energy out each night in meditation.
Hypernoodle . . .But I knew I could not watch him every second
Hypernoodle . . .So it was a choice to let him make his own decision
Hypernoodle . . .But my Nikki is still with me :)
fang . . .but it's like when another friend dies, it compounds the original issue
fang . . .or when one of my dogs die, or i have to put them down
Elissa . . .letting go is very hard... we need to let others make their own mistakes
RevRandy . . .there is a need, in faith, to risk connecting enough that letting go is painful -- but to do less is to miss out on life with connection and meaning
WhiteTiger . . .eleven- when my daughter died, to me, all that changed was the means of expression of the love... the tie remains... all that is "lost" is the physical expression
Hypernoodle . . .RR?
eleven . . .it seems we so easily can identify and label PAIN-because we focus on it and hear about it on the news...why not tap into the opposite.
Elissa . . .((((((wt)))))) i didn't know your daughter died
Hypernoodle . . .we were so connected that I had a tear appear in the roof of my mouth in the exact place where the bullet entered him
eleven . . .WT that it so wonderful to hear you say that///that's what i want to hear more of!!!
WhiteTiger . . .years ago, Elissa... lost her to SIDS, at just under one yr old
fang . . .i wonder if my parents sheltered me so, since i was last child,
fang . . .and they had lost 3 before me
Elissa . . .o i'm sorry... you had so little of her and that kind of loss is not acknowledged in our culture... people say stupid things like "well, you can have another child"
RevRandy . . .I think all of us would hope that we could get to a place where we can sense that it is transition and transformation, and not loss
eleven . . .i don't know if i could find the strength that you have WT- should i be faced that.
RevRandy . . .people find strength they never know they had - through what would seem to be unbearable circumstance
fang . . .yes but the loss of the physical is very important in our culture
Hypernoodle . . .Tiger and Nikki are a good pair :)
WhiteTiger . . .shrug . . .Barbie is well and content where she is... that is enough for me
eleven . . .i felt that peace when my grandmother died.
Elissa . . .eleven, you're right that it's helpful to focus on what we've gained or have instead of on loss...
fang . . .if we were all buddhists, i bet we'd see it differently
Elissa . . .but first we need to know what we've lost and what it means to us
eleven . . .how so?
WhiteTiger . . .lol fang
RevRandy . . .maybe some of us are, fang
StF . . .but its not until ppl come to the understanding for THEMSELVES that the "Pain" is lessened
fang . . .i need to learn more about it
Hypernoodle . . .I can't understand why there is more pain in some instances than in others?
RevRandy . . .all the theories in the world do not soothe the midnights of the soul
Elissa . . .yes stf
Elissa . . .hyper, because every relationship, every person, and every loss is different and unique
WhiteTiger . . .degree of connection, I think hyper
StF . . .I think, like WT said, maybe it IS selfish...but we dont understand that at the "place" that we happen to be at that moment
StF . . .And so the "Pain" IS very real...
StF . . .Until we come to a different understanding
fang . . .i think that christianity was an effort to control the masses when we came over from britain imho
Hypernoodle . . .I was happy when Mother went.....I could see her with angel wings zipping through the traffic :)
Hypernoodle . . .She had gotten so frail here
Elissa . . .if we learn and grow from the loss, that's what important i think
RevRandy . . .(fang - don't get me started on organized religion and its role in keeping the status quo)
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fang . . .ok
RevRandy . . .hey kath
kath . . .:)
Elissa . . .hey kath!
fang . . .think it stifles people though
kath . . .((Rev))
StF . . .oh my goodness!! and THIS from a minister!!!! lol
kath . . .((E))
fang . . .spiritualist minister
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .an irreverent reverend
RevRandy . . .yep - but I am part of a disorganized religion
Hypernoodle . . .lol
WhiteTiger . . .they all are RR... you just know it, is all *G*
RevRandy . . .OK - one last PtoP for the night - from one of my personal favorite friends from over there
RevRandy . . . 0,2MCP:
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Hello-a. When I was-a boys-a they call it Geno but hey-a we call it-a
RevRandy . . . 0,2Genoa. You know-a what-a. That LD is a big piece-a work. I like-a him. He
RevRandy . . . 0,2makes my head-a hurt. So I need-a bigger hats-a. He's deep and so am I. I
RevRandy . . . 0,2speak-a in your-a tongue. Near-a your tongue. Ok, like-a your tongue-a
RevRandy . . . 0,2would-a speak if she be-a mine.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Why do some people travel and others fear travel. I tell you. When we
RevRandy . . . 0,2travel we open ourselves to the greater possibility of meeting more often
RevRandy . . . 0,2the various components of our being-to-be. We expand our spiritual horizons.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We accept complex possibilities. But when one fears travel, one fears
RevRandy . . . 0,2oneself and what might, across lives, be the reality. The wider the horizons
RevRandy . . . 0,2of a person, the greater the complexity imagined; and if you need to have
RevRandy . . . 0,2complexity of 8 to move on, and the world you limit yourself to is always 4 or
RevRandy . . . 0,2less, hey you'll be here a long time and many lives. Stuck.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"And remember those people of your time who thought that drugs were mind
RevRandy . . . 0,2expanding, ha. We laugh at them, since all they did was expand inside a
RevRandy . . . 0,2single life's brain and did nothing to push horizons to include others. They
RevRandy . . . 0,2were journeys deep within but going nowhere. Just like if you read only one
RevRandy . . . 0,2type of literature, you only meet the same characters with different names.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So to move on we must also dare moving out. Or you would end up marrying
RevRandy . . . 0,2your sister--or the spiritual equivalent, which is what most people do. It
RevRandy . . . 0,2can take many lives, but time is irrelevant. And now with time irrelevant
RevRandy . . . 0,2she says time's up. So, I go-a. Prego." (8/27/99 - W#144)
WhiteTiger . . .like that phrase: " did nothing to push horizons to include others"... to me that is what love is, the inclusion of another within one's sense of self
fang . . .prego???sounds like spaghetti sauce :)
Elissa . . .o i like that, wt :)
Elissa . . .lol fang
Elissa . . .prego means thank you
RevRandy . . .so, what do you see here - other than pasta sauce
fang . . .you can tell fang is hungry ;)
WhiteTiger . . .remedial math, perhaps?
StF . . .I'm enjoying the vision of E channeling this one!
Elissa . . .fang needs food :)
fang . . .that we have to expand our horizons or we'll be stuck in a rut?
Elissa . . .he is fun, stf!
RevRandy . . .we do this together - and it does become fun-a
kath . . .hmmm, eventually we will all join together, its only a matter of how much time we wish to take to get there
kath . . .so why not enjoy the journey
RevRandy . . .yep - kath - all working toward an ultimate inclusion
RevRandy . . .of our persistent spirits
kath . . .the longer it takes the more we may end up bringing with us, i mean in terms of intensity of experience
WhiteTiger . . .mmmm... in at least one aspect, we're already all joined... there is one ultimate commonality we share, imo
Elissa . . .yes, kath, and if we stay in our cozy armchairs we will not learn all we could about ourselves and we will limit our possibilities
RevRandy . . .WT - that is the dilemma - we are ultimate part of all-that-is, and yet we remain only a part of it, and not one-with-it
Elissa . . .yes wt, but knowing that intellectually and feeling/living it spiritually are very different
WhiteTiger . . .:) that's not a dilemma, that's a truism LOL
eleven . . .i've always thought of organized religion as a "cozy armchair"!!! lol
RevRandy . . .or padded pew
Elissa . . .i agree eleven
eleven . . .;)
Elissa . . .as is any small exclusionary circle
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmmmmm
Elissa . . .or squiggle... or polygon
kath . . .even when i "think" i am experiencing the "darkness
kath . . . it is almost comical
kath . . .cause that's
kath . . .it it is opening to that which is unknown
RevRandy . . .the biggest challenge is to be open to that which is not yet familiar
WhiteTiger . . .how does that differ from a small inclusionary circle, Elissa?
Elissa . . .if the circle is small, there is no difference that i can see, wt
RevRandy . . .one focuses on what is not within, and the other focuses on what is within -- may have the same result - but the focus can be different
WhiteTiger . . .lol... trick Q... exclusion can only hold steady state at best... inclusion leaves endless option for forward movement *G*
RevRandy . . .KKK worries about those outside their circle; DAR worries about who is in the circle
Elissa . . .ok, i get it... sheeesh you're making me think here!
kath . . .we are all one
kath . . .concentric circle
eleven . . .deep stuff...........................
kath . . .spiral if you will
kath . . .there is no outside
kath . . .nor inside
RevRandy . . .the center will not hold --- AAAAAAAYyyyyyyyyeeeeeee
WhiteTiger . . .cool kath... can I hold $20 of "our" money? *G*
Elissa . . .inclusionary is good, no matter what the size... it contains within it the potential for growth
kath . . .you can try WT, but that 20 is ever moving
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
Elissa . . .hahahahahaha
RevRandy . . .there are always more 20s --- in an abundant universe
kath . . .my number is 30
kath . . .just to throw WT off a bit
Hypernoodle . . .lol
RevRandy . . .Send kath all of your $30 bills
WhiteTiger . . .that there are RR... all it takes is doing what it takes to corner 'em ;)
kath . . .LOL
WhiteTiger . . .lol RR
Hypernoodle . . .Wonder what you can buy with a $30?
RevRandy . . .corner, rope, brand, and send them to the slaughter house
kath . . .eternity
Hypernoodle . . .:)
RevRandy . . .how long is a piece of eternity?
StF . . .one moment
WhiteTiger . . .'bout 20 years vacation, last time I heard
RevRandy . . .or eternal
StF . . .this moment
kath . . .yep
kath . . .kernal in this moment
RevRandy . . .this moment which holds in itself all the moments of now and all time at once
Elissa . . .this moment which contains all that is and all that is possible
kath . . .yes
StF . . .thanks for the reminder :)
kath . . .amen
RevRandy . . .and all that is not possible?
kath . . .amen
WhiteTiger . . .I dunno... what I "see" says that what is, IS... time is a fiction we se to whittle it down small enough we can cope with it a bit at a time
kath . . .oh well, our minds are rather small, makes sense really
RevRandy . . .we should do a whole session on time
StF . . .yup, wt..it's all a matter of focus
RevRandy . . .if we had the time
Elissa . . .time is a way for us "little brains" to deal with eternity
Elissa . . .we have, randy... several of them lol
WhiteTiger . . .StF :)
kath . . .lol
kath . . .why take the time
RevRandy . . .keeps everything from happening at once
RevRandy . . .(which it does anyway)
kath . . .just know
WhiteTiger . . ."we dip our cups at the seashore, but never have more than a cupful at a time"
eleven . . .ok---strange, i had a premonition that we would talk about time about 10 minutes ago...
kath . . .ah dippin my cup at the seashore
Elissa . . .cool eleven
kath . . .that evokes longing within me
StF . . .but the sea is abundant :)
WhiteTiger . . .ewwwwwwwwwwww... seawater tastes AWFUL
Elissa . . .lol
kath . . .WT, dip the cup, don't drink of it
Elissa . . .but feels wonderful!
Hypernoodle . . .lol....kath didn't say she was gonna drink it
kath . . .LOL
RevRandy . . .water, water everywhere, and o the boards did shrink; water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink
kath . . .i wish my tears could flow
Elissa . . .so the fathers we have talked about tonight are those who have led us toward the future we now experience...
RevRandy . . .(sorry about this albatross on my neck)
WhiteTiger . . .kath- I drink of the cup before me ;)
kath . . .(((WT)))
Elissa . . .i'd like to thank them for that on this day... thank you GW, MCP, TJ, and Papa
RevRandy . . .yes - thank you guys -
* WhiteTiger emails RR a fine albatross recipe... very good with a few capers
RevRandy . . .ty
kath . . .(((hugs to all SP supporters)))))
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eleven . . .love to all of you and those great dads out there...
RevRandy . . .now, we need to share some SP news
Elissa . . .((((((((hugs to our inclusionary circle)))))))))) make it be ever-expanding
eleven . . .;)
WhiteTiger . . .yer puttin in a jacuzzi?
kath . . .kewl
RevRandy . . .we will not be here for the next two Sundays (June 25 and July 2)
StF . . .bummer!!!
Elissa . . .right wt... that's the ticket
RevRandy . . .but will return on July 9
WhiteTiger . . .bummer
RevRandy . . .(this here Revs going out of town)
kath . . .oke, then i guess i'll go on vacation also
StF . . .but if they work hard, the jacuzzi could be in!
Hypernoodle . . .that is okay, Tiger......I'll find something for you to do here ;)
WhiteTiger . . .lmao
RevRandy . . .I like that jacuzzi idea
kath . . .yeh but, if i'm not in the jacuzzi with them, who cares
WhiteTiger . . .should I dcc ya a cushion to put on the rail, RR? *EG*
kath . . .LOL
Elissa . . .lol you'll survive... just think of all the pondering you can do!
RevRandy . . .;-)
eleven . . .none of you guys are seeing me in a bikini
kath . . .we survived before we will again
eleven . . .;)
Elissa . . .lol
kath . . .the "b" word
WhiteTiger . . .lmao kath
RevRandy . . .o eleven - you look good
eleven . . .thank you ---so do you!
RevRandy . . .merci
Elissa . . .randy in a bikini... hmmmmm
kath . . .LOL
WhiteTiger . . ."the wrappings and the package got nothing to do with the contents"
StF . . .lol
kath . . .randy in a bikini
kath . . .oh man
RevRandy . . .so, with that we wish you all a great span of light and life
WhiteTiger . . .have fun on yer excursion, RR :)
StF . . .yes, ENJOY!!!
RevRandy . . .thanks - Nashville, Boston, upstate NY
Hypernoodle . . .take care and night all :)
Elissa . . .so have a great 2 weeks, guys... see you on july 9 when we'll talk about "Doubt"
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RevRandy . . .I doubt we are going to talk about that
Elissa . . . 7,0!Elissa rainbow.mid 0,7 :o)
RevRandy . . .be well all
WhiteTiger . . .I'm not sure I can handle that one, Elissa
StF . . .Blessings...and God's Peace...
StF . . .nite.
kath . . .(((StF))))
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WhiteTiger . . .hasta la byebye, folks :)
RevRandy . . .nite all
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eleven . . .bye!
fang . . .night all
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Elissa . . .nite and love to all of you!
Session Close: Sun Jun 18 23:09:56 2000

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Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 1999-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.

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