log052100

*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence *** Topic is ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"RR & E's Points to Ponder" 2,9Sunday 2,11May 21 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

*** NancyM (narniagold@***.colorado-springs7.co.pub-ip.psi.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
*** TF88 (TF88@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
*** StF (ADCjava@208.133.220.***) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
*** t_kahle (ADCjava@***.maxg4-2.dips.csonline.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa . . . . .hey everybody!
NancyM . . . . .{{{{{Elissa}}{}}}
*** Zee (bayridge1@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
*** emerald (ADCjava@***.hartford.navipath.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
*** Jackie (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy . . . . .OK - folks, gather your chairs in a circle, and bid each other welcome to SP
StF . . . . .love the company :)
Elissa . . . . .me too
NancyM . . . . .{{{{{{{{{{{SP}}}}}}}}}
RevRandy . . . . .it is time for another look at Spiritual Persistence
RevRandy . . . . .and for those who may be new here (a special welcome!!!!!) we have a short introduction
*** jan (ADCjava@***.baden1.pa.home.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa . . . . .ok, one moment please
Elissa . . . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . . . .I am a writer, medium, and published poet, and
Elissa . . . . .am currently a Masters student in Community Counseling
Elissa . . . . .at the College of William and Mary.
Elissa . . . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . . . .on August 20, 1995. She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . . . .her junior year at Yale.
Elissa . . . . .8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
Elissa . . . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of
Elissa . . . . .Points to
Elissa . . . . .Ponder. It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa . . . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . . . . or email Randy or me anytime.
Elissa . . . . .Thanks
Elissa . . . . .for coming...and again, welcome! Does anyone have any questions
Elissa . . . . .before we begin?
Elissa . . . . .no questions?
Elissa . . . . .ok, RR
RevRandy . . . . .As the beginning of the formal part of the evening, we ask you to join us in the spirit of our invocation
RevRandy . . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . . . .And guided in all ways gracious. Amen
Elissa . . . . .amen~
StF . . . . .amen
emerald . . . . .amen
NancyM . . . . .AMEN
TF88 . . . . .amen
jan . . . . .amen
Jackie . . . . .amen
RevRandy . . . . .So, what happens here tonight?
RevRandy . . . . .tonight Elissa and I will be sharing (one each) a point to ponder from the 8 categories of points
RevRandy . . . . .and will briefly speak about its meaning to us personally
RevRandy . . . . .and then hope you will engage in discussing what that point means for you
*** lexylee (ADCjava@***.minden.la.ppp.wnonline.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy . . . . .we will do this until about 10, take a short break, and then begin again at 10:10 for a second hour until 11
RevRandy . . . . .(eastern time that is)
RevRandy . . . . .OK - everybody on board?
Elissa . . . . .yep
NancyM . . . . .yes ...
emerald . . . . .ok
jan . . . . .yep
RevRandy . . . . .And I will make my usual caveats - what we are seeking here is the truth reveal in our individual understanding, always knowing that our own pieces are only parts of a larger Truth that is beyond any known system
RevRandy . . . . .and that any question, comment, shared feeling, is valid and welcomed
RevRandy . . . . .as long as we respect each other
RevRandy . . . . .OK - in the spectrum of topics in Spiritual Persistence
RevRandy . . . . .we begin with ENERGY
RevRandy . . . . .and the point I chose is:
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4"Anger arises when we feel powerless and we seek some energy.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4And if the other person does not respond, the angry one gets even angrier--feeling even more powerless.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4Anger uses energy in an attempt to get energy, but if none is forthcoming there is a bigger deficit.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4So, the angry person keeps looking for a source. You hate your boss, so you kick the dog.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4It works, but in negative ways, because that energy is never yours.
RevRandy . . . . .
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4It does not ultimately fulfill the need.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4Only you can create the energy you need--not others, not God, not anything.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4And only you can prevent forest fires.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4"Angry people just get angrier.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4Real power is generated within yourself by what you do and feel and think and dream and dare.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4We are generators. We are the creators of our physical energies.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,4We take in and transform the energy to our use. So, why not the same with spiritual energy?" (12/10/95 - R#12)
RevRandy . . . . .I have chosen this because it speaks to some learning of mine over the past several years
RevRandy . . . . .about myself and about others
RevRandy . . . . .and my propensity to intertwine myself in the anger of others - and let them use some of my energy
*** milkelee (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy . . . . .and also my propensity to look outside myself, not just in anger but other ways, for energy for myself
RevRandy . . . . .and to understand that I have to be my own transformative agent of energy, not a borrower or stealer or ransomer or facilitator of others' energy
NancyM . . . . .amen...
emerald . . . . .Amen
StF . . . . .:)
RevRandy . . . . .It also reminds me that when we look within we find there has always been an abundance of energy there
RevRandy . . . . .So, that is what this says to me ... but what does this open up for you?
StF . . . . .The same...the propensity to "intertwine" ...the "thievery" on each side
StF . . . . .The "grasping" for love...
StF . . . . .The exhaustion it leaves you with
Elissa . . . . .great choices of words, stf
emerald . . . . .I always feel drained after an argument with my children or husband now I know why. It is easy to fall into this habit. But how do we create our own energy.
NancyM . . . . .to affirm and live with my own energy... not in need
RevRandy . . . . .this kind of energy always takes more energy than it finds/gets
RevRandy . . . . .but the internal kind is abundant
RevRandy . . . . .But how do we create our own energy - ah
Elissa . . . . .we create our own energy by what we do and think and feel and dream and dare, emerald (a misquote from Rikkity)
StF . . . . .Any suggestions for better access to that??? Prayer...meditation..of course...
StF . . . . .But on a momentary basis?
Elissa . . . . .each of us has to discover that which feeds and energizes us
RevRandy . . . . .I think we each have to find our own path to it .... and what works for someone else may not work for us
NancyM . . . . .by saying believing it is so ?
Elissa . . . . .for some it may be movies, reading, dancing, walking in nature, etc. etc.
RevRandy . . . . .Nancy - to some extent yes - to believe oneself as empowered is to see oneself that way
emerald . . . . .meditation
Elissa . . . . .meditation is wonderful
NancyM . . . . .yes rev
Elissa . . . . .whatever works :)
NancyM . . . . .indeed
StF . . . . .Self love...yes...not to be afraid to go within
RevRandy . . . . .I know for me, I find some of my deepest connects to energy in classical music ... but that is just my path
Elissa . . . . .and tf's :)
TF88 . . . . .:)
RevRandy . . . . .we are all worthy of being loved, especially by ourselves!
NancyM . . . . .i find mine in forests of trees and flowers
Jackie . . . . .powerlessness--creating anger, I can see that today in a job situation. I have to either change to another job (learning and planning the work all over again) or give up the job. I don't know that meditation or anything else is going to make me feel better about this right now
RevRandy . . . . .Jackie - sometimes you have to just let go ... tough I know ....
Elissa . . . . .jackie, is it anger that's causing this change?
RevRandy . . . . .which is what meditation can be
RevRandy . . . . .or anger at the change happening
emerald . . . . .Sometimes you just have to ask yourself "How important is it?"
StF . . . . .Good point, emerald
Jackie . . . . .no, I am angry because the job is changing and I am not given a choice
Elissa . . . . .feeling powerless can sometimes prompt us to disconnect
Elissa . . . . .that's what i meant
Elissa . . . . .you have no choice, or you feel you have no choice
TF88 . . . . .meditating, etc cannot substitute for learning how to not participate in exchanges of anger though
RevRandy . . . . .I also would like to point to the possibility that having a very good friend, one who does not live off your energy, can be a terrific resource in times like that
NancyM . . . . .Totally agree Rev A loving non judging friend is an asset
emerald . . . . .It's hard to do when you're emotions are in the way but it helps put things in perspective.
Elissa . . . . .true tf
Jackie . . . . .yes, I can see that
RevRandy . . . . .TF - yes - meditation may help you find your energy so you can then stop
TF88 . . . . .I think what's important is to become conscious of our participation in anger
Elissa . . . . .there is an art to understanding when to withdraw from the anger
RevRandy . . . . .Yes - conscious of our participation, and intentional in our response
TF88 . . . . .THEN we can retain our own energy and start looking to increase it in a healthy way
Elissa . . . . .it takes practice, and the experience of seeing that it works
RevRandy . . . . .yessireee
StF . . . . .Which is where meditation can help...to ground us to ourselves
Jackie . . . . .definitely
RevRandy . . . . .or any form of grounding
emerald . . . . .Is there anyway to help someone who has a lot of anger inside of them?
Elissa . . . . .yes emerald, don't feed into it
NancyM . . . . .love them without judgement
Elissa . . . . .respond to it lovingly and rationally but not defensively or reactively
StF . . . . .how do you love them w/out judgement...without enabling it?
TF88 . . . . .by acknowledging how they feel
emerald . . . . .It is very hard not to be reactive.
NancyM . . . . .from within myself i can love all
RevRandy . . . . .but realise that people who are angry with us often have practiced pushing our buttons as part of their attempt at getting at our energy
TF88 . . . . .without having to disapprove or approve
Elissa . . . . .you stay whole and let go of your expectations about how they "should" behave
Elissa . . . . .let go of what you need from them
NancyM . . . . .i choose friends w/ discernment
RevRandy . . . . .so one needs to work on one's own buttons, so they are not there, or less so
NancyM . . . . .yessss
Elissa . . . . .this ties in with my choice from this category
RevRandy . . . . .good for it E
Elissa . . . . .so, i'll post it:
Elissa . . . . . 2,4"3 thoughts: I forgive myself, I forgive others,
Elissa . . . . . 2,4I begin again in love.
Elissa . . . . . 2,4Letting go, letting others go, proceeding in love.
Elissa . . . . . 2,4It's a spring theme.
Elissa . . . . . 2,4Each spring the world, having been scarred by all the seasons,
Elissa . . . . . 2,4starts again. It accepts itself as it is.
Elissa . . . . . 2,4It buries what others have done to it.
Elissa . . . . . 2,4And it begins again in loveliness. That's it." (3/18/2000)
Elissa . . . . .and that IS it :)
StF . . . . .Oooooh....
Elissa . . . . .this is what i have been striving to do... moment by moment
Elissa . . . . .ever since we received it from Rikkity.
NancyM . . . . .kewl
NancyM . . . . .it heals itself
Elissa . . . . .yes, and we all can do the same when we are willing to examine ourselves,
Elissa . . . . .let go, accept others for who they are, and proceed in love.
Elissa . . . . .what more need be said?
NancyM . . . . .forgiveness of self n others past present future is powerful 2 me
NancyM . . . . .nada elissa
Elissa . . . . .yes, forgiveness does not mean we have to like what others do...
Elissa . . . . .only that we can let go
StF . . . . .yes...letting go of past...living the present in love...trusting the future
NancyM . . . . .true
TF88 . . . . .nor does it mean we have to forget
Elissa . . . . .stop trying to control everything, let go of fears
RevRandy . . . . .I find many people can forgive others - and many can forgive themselves, but few seem to be able to do both with consistency
Elissa . . . . .right tf
NancyM . . . . .ahhhhhhhh
StF . . . . .yeah, good point, Rev
StF . . . . .Takes work!!!
NancyM . . . . .indeed paying attention
RevRandy . . . . .forgetting is the opposite of learning and remembering ... which would be counterproductive -- forgiving is moving on having learned
t_kahle . . . . .do people who are angry with you "push your buttons" to get your energy" consciously? on purpose? or is it on a subconscious level?
Elissa . . . . .t, i believe it's mostly unconscious... they feel that it works and energizes them temporarily
StF . . . . .yes
emerald . . . . .How do you let go of the past if someone else keeps bringing it up?
Elissa . . . . .emerald, you focus elsewhere
NancyM . . . . .ooo thats so right rev
StF . . . . .Habitual
Elissa . . . . .yes, randy
Elissa . . . . .but the negative memories may fade in time when they're not focused on
RevRandy . . . . .I think the act of "stealing" energy is addictive, and probably ought to be treated like an addiction
NancyM . . . . .hmmmmmmm
StF . . . . .Certainly...codependent relationships
emerald . . . . .Like a habit that needs to be broken
Elissa . . . . .addiction is right!
Elissa . . . . .exactly
t_kahle . . . . .wowie, no wonder I'm always so drained.
NancyM . . . . .i got that
NancyM . . . . .addiction
Elissa . . . . .any external source of energy can be an addiction
Elissa . . . . .some people get addicted to romance
StF . . . . .Ok...question...
RevRandy . . . . .yes
NancyM . . . . .true elissa
t_kahle . . . . .so you can keep them from stealing your energy by not being upset?
Elissa . . . . .yes, t
StF . . . . .We can police ourselves...but what of the addict..who doesn’t realize they are an addict
t_kahle . . . . .by not reacting?
TF88 . . . . .by not reacting within yourself
StF . . . . .Must you leave the darkness to walk into the light?
NancyM . . . . .yesssss it works 2
t_kahle . . . . .in that way, you might be able to train them not to do it.
RevRandy . . . . .sometimes, yes, StF- invite the other, but sometimes they will not go there
Elissa . . . . .not reacting, as in not responding to what they're doing... respond the way YOU want to see the conversation go... focus it in a positive direction
emerald . . . . .What if the other person is a pessimist?
Elissa . . . . .stf, when you don't feed the addiction, the person has to find energy another way... they have no choice
RevRandy . . . . .one of the problems is that most of us learned our skills at coping with anger/energy addictions in childhood, and all we learned were survival skills, not disconnect skills
TF88 . . . . .t...we can't change/train others, but if they are not able to take our energy, in time they will stop trying
StF . . . . .amen to that
*** pogo (ADCjava@***.ne.mediaone.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa . . . . .true randy
t_kahle . . . . .I think that's what I meant.
*** Carol (gezobezo@***.epix.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa . . . . .that's it t!
RevRandy . . . . .so I sense Rikkity suggesting we look inside to seek our own core of energy so we can feel safe in disconnecting from the exchange
StF . . . . .yes, safe within God's stillness
RevRandy . . . . .well, how about a look at one more area of PtoPs?
RevRandy . . . . .next category is Living and Enjoying
RevRandy . . . . .ahhhh
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7"The only measure of meaning is the person.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7The person is the only one who can tell you whether or not they fulfilled their purpose;
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7whether or not their life had meaning;
RevRandy . . . . .
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7whether or not they accomplished and learned and remembered what they were there to accomplish and learn and remember.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7No one...no one...looking in from outside of them can understand or judge that.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7No one can truly know where that person fits into their life, into their entity, into the universe,
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7EXCEPT THAT PERSON. That is why acceptance is so vitally important.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7When we don't accept someone, we make it harder for them to fulfill their purpose and the purpose the universe has fo
RevRandy . . . . . 0,7When we don't accept someone, we make it harder for them to fulfill their purpose and the purpose the universe has for them!" (6/4/96 - O#17)
RevRandy . . . . .I chose this because I think it is essential from two perspectives - one about us, and one about others
RevRandy . . . . .To know that while others can offer us their insights into us, no one else can really know us to the spiritual core of our being.
RevRandy . . . . .And to know that no matter how insightful we feel we are, we cannot look into the core of others either.
RevRandy . . . . .So, the best we can do is to accept them .... but remember acceptance does not mean a wide open OK
RevRandy . . . . .it means we accept them for who they are, not what they do
RevRandy . . . . .and it also means we have the right to be able to accept them and walk away
RevRandy . . . . .I see our world
RevRandy . . . . .so torn by many factions, traditions, religions,
RevRandy . . . . .that want to say what a person should be like
NancyM . . . . .yes
RevRandy . . . . .and all of that speaks only of a focus on differences,
RevRandy . . . . .not on acceptance and a focus on connections.
RevRandy . . . . .So, I turn to this piece and remind myself of this.
StF . . . . .amen
RevRandy . . . . .And what about for you?
StF . . . . .Lately I've been trying to ponder the idea of "stepping back" and watching, as if a play...
RevRandy . . . . .interesting analogy -
TF88 . . . . .I wrote something to someone just today regarding this issue
StF . . . . .and wondering...if the players who seem so "bad", "different" etc, are not our most important teachers
StF . . . . .Maybe of what we do not want...
StF . . . . .But they are necessary to lead us to what we do
NancyM . . . . .i have tried with the pessimist to always react with optimism
Elissa . . . . .interesting thought, stf
StF . . . . .Ying and Yang...
emerald . . . . .I guess we should try harder to love those that are hard to love
NancyM . . . . .or try harder to love ourselves
StF . . . . .Good Christ thoughts
RevRandy . . . . .I think about attending a play - let's say it is one I find I do not like - I may try to get something out of it, or I may leave, but I would not throw rotten tomatoes at the actors
NancyM . . . . .lol
StF . . . . .no? lol
t_kahle . . . . .So, even if someone is a real "beastie" we have to learn to accept them because maybe it's part of their purpose somehow? We should figure out a way to see past the "beastie?" or learn from the "beastie"?
Elissa . . . . .i think that once you can learn to accept yourself for who you are and not expect as much from others, then acceptance of others flows naturally
TF88 . . . . .may I share what it was I wrote today?
Elissa . . . . .please, tf
NancyM . . . . .i treat all as a lesson to learn best i can
RevRandy . . . . .Maybe their learning is to find out that being a beastie does not feed them, but it does not also cut them off from acceptance
TF88 . . . . .We will always encounter people who do not understand why we make our personal choices...
TF88 . . . . .and when they attempt to squelch our interest, they are truly doing nothing more than
TF88 . . . . .speaking their own fears aloud for us to hear
NancyM . . . . .true
.RevRandy . . . . .Amen
NancyM . . . . .right on tf88
StF . . . . .yup...well written
Elissa . . . . .o fear is such a huge part of it... the "beasties" are always full of fear
TF88 . . . . .now, if I can just make sure I don't squelch OTHER people's interests! LOL
NancyM . . . . .lol
emerald . . . . .That was well written TF
TF88 . . . . .thank you
Elissa . . . . .lol tf... yes, but others need to learn how to take care of themselves
RevRandy . . . . .our own vigilance and modeling is one of the best gifts we can give others
t_kahle . . . . .So, it's not our business to try to change the beasties, just to accept them - not their actions.
t_kahle . . . . .??? I'm asking.
Elissa . . . . .yep
emerald . . . . .Let's just hope they pay attention to us
StF . . . . .And not get sucked in...
RevRandy . . . . .yep - no one appointed us saviors
TF88 . . . . .you got it t :)
NancyM . . . . .indeed rev
emerald . . . . .Hopefully they can learn from us just like we learn from them.
Elissa . . . . .and speaking of fears lol... here's one more before the break:
NancyM . . . . .ok
RevRandy . . . . .(and if you take up that role, of savior, remember what happens to such a person)
NancyM . . . . .lol
Elissa . . . . . 2,7"Guilt and fear have been linked by religions because,
Elissa . . . . . 2,7in fact, they are linked. In many people, guilt becomes
Elissa . . . . . 2,7the familiar feeling accepted in exchange for fear--
Elissa . . . . . 2,7which, no matter how often, can never feel familiar.
Elissa . . . . . 2,7Now let's unpack this... no, not the picnic lunch.
Elissa . . . . . 2,7"What is the origin of fear. A sense of not being in control,
Elissa . . . . . 2,7things happening to one. Ok. And what is the source of guilt.
Elissa . . . . . 2,7A sense that one had complete control of the situation.
Elissa . . . . . 2,7Two ends of the same pole.
Elissa . . . . . 2,7And since ambiguity is so hard to deal with anytime,
Elissa . . . . . 2,7and especially so in stress, we flee from the fear possibilities
Elissa . . . . . 2,7to the guilt certainties rather than live out of control
Elissa . . . . . 2,7and uncertain. The path back from guilt is the path
Elissa . . . . . 2,7through our fears. You can't get out of guilt without dealing
Elissa . . . . . 2,7with those fears.
Elissa . . . . . 2,7"And that's enough more say now to." (3/25/2000)
StF . . . . .wow
Elissa . . . . .this one speaks to me personally, and also professionally...
NancyM . . . . .woa
Elissa . . . . .yes wow lol
NancyM . . . . .that was a mouthful
RevRandy . . . . .she does say it with pith!
Elissa . . . . .it has helped me understand that the guilt i felt when ericka (Rikkity) died..
Elissa . . . . .thinking "if only" i had done such and such it wouldn't have happened...
NancyM . . . . .oh wow again
StF . . . . .((((elissa)))))
Elissa . . . . .was just a way to try to maintain an illusion of being in control
NancyM . . . . .ahhhhhhh
TF88 . . . . .oh, that's interesting!
Elissa . . . . .rather than face the fear that there was no control possible
Elissa . . . . .and i also use this (thank you stf)
Elissa . . . . .with clients in grief counseling, and it makes sense to them every time,
Elissa . . . . .helping them to let go and realise that some things are just uncontrollable. it's especially hard for parents, who feel so very responsible for their children's welfare...
Elissa . . . . .but it is a challenge for everyone of us.
Elissa . . . . .so, your turn :)
StF . . . . .Just such a true, true description of fear....
NancyM . . . . .oh thx elissa i was dealing with a person going thru exactly this 2 day
Elissa . . . . .that person may want to see this nancy
NancyM . . . . .yes indeed
NancyM . . . . .i must get a copy of this
Elissa . . . . .we can also see how someone who is fearful would want to take control of a situation and become a "beastie"
StF . . . . .Yes, and the correlation of guilt stemming from "control" makes sense
StF . . . . .Absolute sense...act from fear...but then "take charge" but maybe not do things perfectly
StF . . . . .Then feel "guilt" that "your" control was imperfect
RevRandy . . . . .I was just thinking that the "beasties" seem to operate without any sense of guilt about their actions/anger, and that is because their primary mode is fear, not a sense of control
StF . . . . .hmmmm...
StF . . . . .yes
Elissa . . . . .yes, stf
NancyM . . . . .OH agree REV
Elissa . . . . .good one, randy
RevRandy . . . . .(((((time for a break .... but keep on talking ... E and I need to stretch a leg or two or three or four)))))
Elissa . . . . .bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkk
StF . . . . .But sometimes they disguise their guilt...by refusing to look at it...
NancyM . . . . .yes denial
RevRandy . . . . .guilt can wear many disguises, but since it is based on control, it often seems fearless ... the mirror image of the other role
*** Elissa is now known as Elissabrb
*** Faith (ADCjava@***.morristown-13-14rs.nj.dial-access.att.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
t_kahle . . . . .Man, did that fear/guilt stuff ever hit home.
RevRandy . . . . .pretty on the money for many of us
t_kahle . . . . .I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian "hell fire and brimstone" church with scary church ladies to boot.
t_kahle . . . . .It's hard to let go of all of that "fear of God"
t_kahle . . . . .really hard
StF . . . . .Yes, t_k...but I found the only release of fear I've ever found....in God
RevRandy . . . . .I understand .... but what kind of God would want a universe ruled by fear?
StF . . . . .Once I starting believing in His LOVE, and trusting Him
t_kahle . . . . .My brain knows all of this.
*** Elissabrb is now known as Elissa
RevRandy . . . . .that God was a projection of the early Biblical tribes' own fears
t_kahle . . . . .I grew up and realized that there is a lot more to it.
RevRandy . . . . .and the challenge always is to see what we project out from ourselves onto the things of ultimate value to us
t_kahle . . . . .but it's so hard to let go of the old fear.
t_kahle . . . . .And the guilt!!!
RevRandy . . . . .it was well inculcated
t_kahle . . . . .That's why I come here.
RevRandy . . . . .the old adage - give guilt, the gift that keeps on giving
StF . . . . .And oftentimes still is, today...
StF . . . . .Bothers me a lot...that many "Christian" communities still use fear as teaching
RevRandy . . . . .not just Christian
t_kahle . . . . .I want to learn about meditation, and am especially interested in astral projection. But my fears hold me back.
Elissa . . . . .christianity is slowly backing itself into a corner
StF . . . . .And that many back away when you call yourself a Christian because of it
t_kahle . . . . .I am terrified of mediums. And now I'm learning from them.
RevRandy . . . . .then only go a small step at a time .... you don't have to do the whole journey at once
Elissa . . . . .:) t
RevRandy . . . . .OK - let's come on back to our shared journey here
RevRandy . . . . .with more PtoP
t_kahle . . . . .ok
RevRandy . . . . .Learning and Remembering
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8"The revolution will not come from outside but within, as we change our viewpoints.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8It's not hiding in the tail of a comet or in the woods of South America or in the words of outdated scripture or in Missouri.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8"And any great new vision will have to be able to be expressed in common words and images.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8The idea that it must be complex or obscure is s h i t.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8The ones that will make it are the insights that sound familiar and accessible,
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8but which lead to an 'aha' moment and a change of perspective or consciousness or awareness.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8You won't have to wade through it. In reading it you will first think it feels both familiar and foreign,
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8but once read it will feel as comfortable as an old shoe.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8You will put it on like any garment,
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8but while it appears new it will feel old and you will have been transformed by its revelation.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8"But don't forget it's a two-way street.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8You are being revealed to it, too; so it and you are organic and interactive.
RevRandy . . . . . 1,8Any truth that claims to be static is not static, it's dead--gone, kaput, nada, zippo." (9/7/97 - Y#17)
RevRandy . . . . .I chose this partly
RevRandy . . . . .to remind myself, in my preaching and sharing,
RevRandy . . . . .and especially in this technological age,
RevRandy . . . . .that the greatest truths are always the simplest
RevRandy . . . . .If I have to get very complicated
RevRandy . . . . .to explain it
RevRandy . . . . .then it probably is not where our thinking is open at the moment
RevRandy . . . . .And also that I personally should look for my own new awarenesses
RevRandy . . . . .not so much in moments that transform
RevRandy . . . . .as in moments that affirm
*** adevine (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy . . . . .and illumine
RevRandy . . . . .which feel familiar as soon as they appear
RevRandy . . . . .and also to remember that it is a two way street
RevRandy . . . . .and that as much as I am changed by new insights,
RevRandy . . . . .insights are changed by my interaction with them.
NancyM . . . . .grin
RevRandy . . . . .That's what I see here -
RevRandy . . . . .what about you?
Elissa . . . . .i think we also need to
Elissa . . . . .keep in mind that "simple" does not necessarily mean "easy" or "comfortable"
NancyM . . . . .that i agree ....
RevRandy . . . . .no, not at all - simple just means accessible to all
StF . . . . .Yes, seems my best growth has come from moments that "affirm" ...which leads...to transformation
StF . . . . .The affirmation leads to trust in the Divine
adevine . . . . .I am aware I have tons of gifts....but need some tuning
NancyM . . . . .mine r like lil pointers pokin me sayin remember lol
RevRandy . . . . .ah, yes, the many things that add up!
Elissa . . . . .lol mine are more like cattle prods
NancyM . . . . .ROFL
Elissa . . . . .ouch! lol
adevine . . . . .I adore all the little helpful hints and little warnings I get all the time
NancyM . . . . .ok bolts of lightenin between the eyes at times 2
Elissa . . . . .rofl!!!!!!!
RevRandy . . . . .but so many ignore the simple stuff, and keep waiting for the unified theory of everything, in terms they cannot understand
Elissa . . . . .well mine is about how we learn and grow, so maybe this is a good time for it?
NancyM . . . . .like oh.. I couldHave hadda V8
RevRandy . . . . .yep
StF . . . . .Interaction with them....Experiential leads to true understanding
Elissa . . . . .lol... ok
Elissa . . . . . 2,8"We will consider the quantum mechanics of spiritual knowledge.
Elissa . . . . . 2,8Hey, it ain't linear, baby. And we ask and answer the question
Elissa . . . . . 2,8of how come we seem to exist at one level of understanding
Elissa . . . . . 2,8for a long time and then suddenly we are at another level
Elissa . . . . . 2,8without any seeming flow between the two.
Elissa . . . . . 2,8And what seemed so true suddenly seems so ridiculous.
Elissa . . . . . 2,8"Hint: The ancients knew and called it ‘the straw that broke
Elissa . . . . . 2,8the camel's back.' One little thing added to a system already
Elissa . . . . . 2,8stressed but unchanged can profoundly change the whole system.
adevine . . . . .I was wondering...anyone like to share anything special with me
adevine . . . . .and I believe that you get what you need to know when you need to know it
Elissa . . . . . 2,8That's why some people encounter a death and seem so strong,
Elissa . . . . . 2,8and then a week later a shirt button will reduce them to tears.
Elissa . . . . . 2,8"It's the same with growth. You store all this learning
Elissa . . . . . 2,8and remembering, which does not change you and then
Elissa . . . . . 2,8one wee wittle thingie happens and all of it falls into place.
Elissa . . . . . 2,8And you say, ‘Where did all that come from,' or ,
Elissa . . . . . 2,8'Why didn't I put that together before.' Because it took a
Elissa . . . . . 2,8certain spiritual awareness to do it.
Elissa . . . . . 2,8Actually, a certain sum of spiritual awarenesses." (10/4/99)
adevine . . . . .I understand that
StF . . . . ."Hey, it ain't linear, Baby". Love her humor :)
Elissa . . . . .this has helped me focus on the journey rather than the destination--the process of learning
Elissa . . . . .and remembering rather than the specific steps involved.
NancyM . . . . .that makes perfect sense // like the 100th monkey theory
Elissa . . . . .it's a sum... not a straight line from point A to point B...
Elissa . . . . .and it also tells me that when i'm trying to explain my beliefs
Elissa . . . . .to someone else and they don't get it, that it may very well be
Elissa . . . . .because they have not had that one experience that would open them up to
Elissa . . . . .understanding.
NancyM . . . . .indeed
StF . . . . .yup..
Elissa . . . . .i don't bang my head against the wall about it any more LOL... i just wait and try again later :)
StF . . . . .ACIM says we all take the Course, but we determine how long it will take
NancyM . . . . .my entire life is just like that wanderin blindly till i SMACK into a big tree and go oh
NancyM . . . . .and open my eyes
StF . . . . .Duh!
StF . . . . .lol
Elissa . . . . .in terms of my own learning, this is true in school as well.
Elissa . . . . .sometimes when a theory or concept doesn't make sense, i know that
Elissa . . . . .after i've learned more about something else it will probably become clearer...
NancyM . . . . .yes..
Elissa . . . . .a good reason to not discount anything that comes across my path.
NancyM . . . . .ooooo sooooo true
Elissa . . . . .ok, now you talk (as little ericka used to say)
StF . . . . .Yes, we are always in the right place at the right time
Elissa . . . . .o you already have talked lol
StF . . . . .oops! we've already been interjecting! Guess we're feeling comfortable :)
Elissa . . . . .that's ok, i was just looking at my keyboard
Elissa . . . . .go ahead... this room is yours :)
RevRandy . . . . .(as long as you clean it after you use it)
Elissa . . . . .lol
StF . . . . .awwww!
NancyM . . . . .lol
TF88 . . . . .It's like re-visiting the same piece of music time after time after time
TF88 . . . . .suddenly one day you go "Oh"
TF88 . . . . .and whatever it was, was always there
StF . . . . .yes!
Elissa . . . . .or the same PtoP :)
RevRandy . . . . .was always there ... or was it?
StF . . . . .Nothin new under the sun!
Elissa . . . . .but our awareness is new
TF88 . . . . .the potential was always there
RevRandy . . . . .but always something new under "our" sun
Elissa . . . . .and our awareness changes our experience and thus our reality
StF . . . . .yup..
RevRandy . . . . .like the things that we hated the taste of as children, and now .... ah
NancyM . . . . .yesssss
NancyM . . . . .lol
TF88 . . . . .the incredible complexity suddenly seems blatantly simple
RevRandy . . . . .yes, TF - know what you mean
StF . . . . .Truth is simple....
NancyM . . . . .yes simplicity it seems is more "comfortable"
RevRandy . . . . .Thoreau spoke of the sun which puts out our eyes is like blindness to us .... if it is too grand, too big, we can't see it
NancyM . . . . .hmmmmmmm
RevRandy . . . . .it is beyond our pattern of recognition, until, little by little, we get used to it, and then one day, over only a small change, wow, there it all is
RevRandy . . . . .time for one more PtoP category do you think?????
RevRandy . . . . .sure (answering my own question)
Elissa . . . . .more more more
Elissa . . . . .category: Grief, Death, and the Afterlife
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3"Now about change. Most people resist change, but one thing worse is getting shortchanged;
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3and that is what you get when you resist the natural change.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3If change is to come into your life, embrace it all. You don't want just some.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3For example, my death without this.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Too many, finding themselves in change, stop halfway and say, 'I can't take anymore.'
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Hey, if you are crossing a river it doesn't do any good to stop in the middle.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3So, realize the great fear is really that it won't change enough,
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3and that fear keeps us from being open to enough change. Hmmm...I'm smart.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Those who suffer change don't let it play out.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Like people who have to leave somewhere or something and then don't reestablish themselves elsewhere or with something else.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Ok, that's it.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3"You know you haven't let it play out when the pain of loss is greater than the reward of change.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Like when you are getting change and you tell you are getting shorted,
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3but then at last the needed dollar drops and the equation is equal. Then you can walk away in balance.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3Look, if each time you had a transaction you lost a dime, it might not seem like much;
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3but each year you'd be down a couple hundred buckos.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3And that is also what some do.
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3They let themselves get shortchanged just a wee wittle tad, and say it's ok;
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3but, over time they lose lots and don't know why they feel so shortchanged by life. So, go." (8/16/99 - G#55)
RevRandy . . . . .Oh, boy, what I could say about this ......
RevRandy . . . . .Elissa and I were just commenting over dinner tonight about the changes we have seen in the last several years in ourselves
Elissa . . . . .yes!
RevRandy . . . . .and I have to acknowledge that those would not have happened had I followed my fears
RevRandy . . . . .and stopped midway
RevRandy . . . . .and retreated
RevRandy . . . . .to familiar ground
RevRandy . . . . .even if the familiar ground were now empty
NancyM . . . . .woa
RevRandy . . . . .and this phrase:
RevRandy . . . . .“the great fear is really that it won't change enough”
RevRandy . . . . .it is hard to know that is what is going on while it is going on
Elissa . . . . .yes yes YES
RevRandy . . . . .but I look back now and see that!!!!!
NancyM . . . . .ditto !
RevRandy . . . . .We fear we will get stuck in the land of no meaning,
RevRandy . . . . .but that very fear sticks us there
Elissa . . . . .aha
RevRandy . . . . .and
RevRandy . . . . . 0,3"You know you haven't let it play out when the pain of loss is greater than the reward of change”.
RevRandy . . . . .wow -
NancyM . . . . .incredible
RevRandy . . . . .when the pain still overcomes the reward, the change has not gone its course
RevRandy . . . . .So, what do you see here?
StF . . . . .yes, yes, yes...living in lack...expecting to be shortchanged....stopping halfway in the river...
StF . . . . .Living in mediocrity...because you fear to go forward
Elissa . . . . .pain is a red flag that says, "keep moving forward and you will find that which will balance it"
t_kahle . . . . .I've got writer's cramp!!! LOL But I'm learning loads!!
NancyM . . . . .that we get as we believe
Elissa . . . . .((((((t))))))
NancyM . . . . .lol
RevRandy . . . . .t - ask Elissa for a log to be sent to you
Elissa . . . . .i'll be glad to... just give me your email address
StF . . . . .And then life has passed you by...and you feel so "poor"
RevRandy . . . . .and I think of all the rivers I never crossed
RevRandy . . . . .and what on this category for you, E?
Elissa . . . . .ooops, i was in pm :)
Elissa . . . . .o boy...
NancyM . . . . .lol
NancyM . . . . .mon
Elissa . . . . .well it's the grief journey, isn't it...
Elissa . . . . .and it's true for every loss. i have a friend who has recently
Elissa . . . . .separated from his wife and then almost immediately
Elissa . . . . .began to think about going back to her.
Elissa . . . . .his fear stopped him in the middle of the river...
Elissa . . . . .it was his choice to leave the relationship
Elissa . . . . .but he couldn't deal with the unknown that lay ahead...
Elissa . . . . .rikkity said to give him this PtoP, and it helped him realise what he was doing...
Elissa . . . . .it has helped me stop and think every time i begin to feel
Elissa . . . . .pain or fear, knowing that to keep going is the only way i will
Elissa . . . . .find what's on the other side. i think i've always known this intuitively...
Elissa . . . . .but it sure helps to have it in a PtoP lol
NancyM . . . . .: }
*** RevAngelsHorizons (AngelsHor4@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
t_kahle . . . . .What is PtoP? I hate to be so obtuse. :o)
Elissa . . . . .Point to Ponder
t_kahle . . . . .thank you
RevRandy . . . . .sorry for the shorthand
Elissa . . . . .so, that's all i have to say about that :)
RevRandy . . . . .and your choice ---
Elissa . . . . .that WAS my choice! we had the same one lol
t_kahle . . . . .you said that it would be ok to e-mail you and ask questions?
StF . . . . .ty, elissa, powerful mirror
Elissa . . . . .sure t
NancyM . . . . .is'nt it all a choice ?
RevRandy . . . . .I remember now - great minds work alike
Elissa . . . . .we chose the same PtoP for that category
RevRandy . . . . .So, from all we have presented tonight - any final thoughts, questions, comments, etc
Elissa . . . . .can you tell what issues we're working on? LOL
NancyM . . . . .lol
NancyM . . . . .oh no
StF . . . . .Tremendous time, Thank you!
Elissa . . . . .:P
NancyM . . . . .; ]
RevRandy . . . . .good discussion - thanks for all the openness
adevine . . . . .you are all very sensitive and true
Elissa . . . . .thank YOU
NancyM . . . . .THANKS i missed this so much
Elissa . . . . .we'll continue this format next sunday night.
RevRandy . . . . .and we will be back here next week at 9 ET to finish up this tour of our own favorite Points to Ponder
Elissa . . . . .(didn't i just say that)
StF . . . . .Blessings to all, and God's Peace...
RevRandy . . . . .and to you
NancyM . . . . .peace StF
StF . . . . .StFrancis "Lord, Make me an instrument of your Peace"
adevine . . . . .peace enjoy
Elissa . . . . .any last thoughts or feelings?
RevRandy . . . . .I am feeling tired
adevine . . . . .night...thanks..good typing lol
NancyM . . . . .i am feeling thoughtful
NancyM . . . . .thx
RevRandy . . . . .ty
Elissa . . . . .ok, rainbow song time
NancyM . . . . .ok
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa . . . . . 11,12!Elissa rainbow.mid 12,11 :o)
RevRandy . . . . .night all - be well - join us again
TF88 . . . . .tkahle, you can also bring your questions to the spiritual persistence message board
Elissa . . . . .we talked about a lot tonight, and i really appreciate all of your thoughts and ponderings. it was great!
Elissa . . . . .o good idea, tf... what's the url? lol
TF88 . . . . .um...I don't know E
TF88 . . . . .but we can get to the board via www.spiritualpersistence.com
RevRandy . . . . .http://members.boardhost.com/diwilson/
adevine . . . . .you all have so much to share..part of your reward
RevRandy . . . . .nite all
Elissa . . . . .. . . . .nite everyone ((((((love you all))))))))
Session Close: Sun May 21 23:01:59 2000