03/19/2000 - LETTING GO, LETTING OTHERS GO,
PROCEEDING IN LOVE

Session Start: Sun Mar 19 20:48:29 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"Letting Go, Letting Others Go, Proceeding in Love" 2,9Sunday 2,11March 19 0,12at 9pm 2,13EST ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

Elissa. . . . .welcome spring!
Elissa. . . . .it's spring eve
RevRandy. . . . .welcome to Spiritual Persistence, the weekly chat that asks the question
Elissa. . . . .am i here?
RevRandy. . . . .you are
Elissa. . . . .o good
RevRandy. . . . .actually, we weekly explore themes of spiritual existence based on the materials in the Spiritual Persistence Points to Ponder
RevRandy. . . . .and before we go further, I would like to invite you all into a time of invocation --
RevRandy. . . . .to gather a circle of care and well-being:
RevRandy. . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . . .and guided in all ways gracious. Amen.
Elissa. . . . .amen~
bluelight. . . . .amen
TF88. . . . .peace
fang. . . . .amen
Jackie. . . . .amen
lmw121. . . . .amen
Craig. . . . .amen
RevRandy. . . . .Tonight is the eve of Spring for those of us in the northern hemisphere
RevRandy. . . . .in the middle of the night, light will begin to outweigh darkness in the daily flow of existence
RevRandy. . . . .and in this same vein,
RevRandy. . . . .Rikkity suggested that we think about Spring -
RevRandy. . . . .the Spring of the world around us
RevRandy. . . . .and another Spring of the world within us.
RevRandy. . . . .Around us, at this time of year, the earth performs a simple ritual --
RevRandy. . . . .it lets go of what has been and is not any longer --
RevRandy. . . . .letting go in the process of past trials, and imperfections,
RevRandy. . . . .and it also lets go of what has happened to it by the other forces
RevRandy. . . . .accepting the fields of now as the reality, not what has been done
RevRandy. . . . .and then the earth proceeds in abundance, is wondrous outpourings of pastels and scents
RevRandy. . . . .of life and love reborn
RevRandy. . . . .That is the world around us, outside of us, surrounding us
RevRandy. . . . .And inside each of us is that same potential
RevRandy. . . . .if we follow a similar ritual of the season -
RevRandy. . . . .and so this chat tonight
RevRandy. . . . .about letting go, of self, and in a way of others, and beginning again
RevRandy. . . . .rephrased in three simple phrases:
RevRandy. . . . .I forgive myself
RevRandy. . . . .I forgive others
RevRandy. . . . .I begin again in love.
RevRandy. . . . .And around these three statements we have gathered some of the Points to Ponder that spoke to us (Elissa and me) in thinking about this
RevRandy. . . . .and we also want to open up ourselves and the chat to
RevRandy. . . . .what you each bring to this time ....
RevRandy. . . . .so, I wonder,
RevRandy. . . . .as you see those three phrases, and focus on the first
RevRandy. . . . ."I forgive myself"
RevRandy. . . . .do you carry something inside for which you feel you need to forgive yourself?
Elissa. . . . .or that you need to let go?
RevRandy. . . . .or want to let go of?
Elissa. . . . .:)
fang. . . . .always
fang. . . . .i'm trying to
Jackie. . . . .yes
Elissa. . . . .would you share it with us?
RevRandy. . . . .we always respect privacy here - but if anyone wants to be more specific, we welcome as much depth of sharing as you feel comfortable with
Jackie. . . . .sorry, too heavy
RevRandy. . . . .ok - understand
fang. . . . .feel guilty about my mother having to spend her last 7 months in a nursing home
*** whitelight (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
fang. . . . .wish i could have taken care of her, like she took care of my dad
RevRandy. . . . .you wish it could have been otherwise
fang. . . . .yes
fang. . . . .always wonder if there was negligence at the nursing home
Craig. . . . .the night my daughter was killed...we left, at my urging, earlier than we really had to...if we had left 15 minutes later, she would be alive, we still would have been on time to get my mom picked up at the airport...
RevRandy. . . . .ah, the very personally familiar "what ifs"
Elissa. . . . .guilt is hard to let go of... it may help to understand that you did what you could do at the time
Elissa. . . . .none of us has the power to keep another alive or well
RevRandy. . . . .and none of us, with certainty, can say that had the circumstances been different that we would have gotten to a better outcome
fang. . . . .i know, i just wish i could have done better, feel like i was a bad daughter
Craig. . . . .so easy to say, and just wipe it away...just like that. the reality is, I am right, she would be alive
Elissa. . . . .maybe craig
Elissa. . . . .i went through the same thing... if only i had stopped her from going out that night
RevRandy. . . . .or if I had kept her on the 'phone longer when she called
Elissa. . . . .but i was me and she was herself and nothing i did could have forced her to be someone else
Craig. . . . .i understand, it makes no difference at this point, she is gone, and there is no changing that
bluelight. . . . .what about realizing there is a reason that we say goodbye to the world when we do
bluelight. . . . .some day u will also .. and u would not want your loved ones to feel this bad
Craig. . . . .my baby was 12, innocent, made no choice other than to get in the backseat
Elissa. . . . .it was a matter of seconds that might have made the difference...
Elissa. . . . .and then maybe she would have died of cancer or worse or had a miserable life... who knows
Craig. . . . .i would give anything to find out
RevRandy. . . . .you do know that you have the gift of those 12 years
*** lostmom (ADCjava@***.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .which cannot be tarnished by any loss
Elissa. . . . .hi lostmom :)
lostmom. . . . .hi guys
lostmom. . . . .sorry i'm late
Craig. . . . .yes, i am fortunate to have just had that child
Elissa. . . . .the question is can you accept that what happened to your loved one was their own journey and not something you had control over
Craig. . . . .i can accept that, sure...but that does nothing for my pain, my missing her
Elissa. . . . .of course not, craig... you'll always miss her because you'll always love her
RevRandy. . . . .let me bring in one of the Points to Ponder - which I think fits.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Grief is the recognition that we have to surrender to the past something we wish were in the present and future.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2When we find balance we can stop grieving, because then we will lose no more. We keep grieving until we can do that.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Let go of what belongs in the past and take on what will inform the future.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2For example, in my life with you there is a lot that belongs in memory and some that belongs in presence
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and some that belongs in visions. Getting them straight is the challenge.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Then you can remember fondly, but not sadly, all those cute things I did;
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and you will keep alive the things of substance I was about, and you can share the dreams of the future I had.
*** milkelee (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
fang. . . . .is trying to just learn to live with it ok?
Elissa. . . . .more than ok fang... acceptance is the key
RevRandy. . . . .I have found that there is a pain that does not go away ... but that does not stop me from building/finding an ever growing world that arises around that pain
bluelight. . . . .Craig what RevRandy and Elissa r here to tell u is that u have NOT lost her
fang. . . . .just physical loss
RevRandy. . . . .when you focus on what is lost, you can't see what you have
Elissa. . . . .that's right blue... our loved ones are right here...
Elissa. . . . .and what we loved about them and the relationship we had is always part of us
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"You miss those things about me, but you still have them if you put them in perspective.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2In fact, if you don't, you don't have them--they have you, and you are stopped on your own journey,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2which in this case is our journey as well. So get with the program." (4/15/96 - G#22)
RevRandy. . . . .a major part of forgiving oneself, I think
*** Starseed (Renee@***.modempools.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .hello Starseed
Elissa. . . . .((((((star))))))
Starseed. . . . .Hi
Starseed. . . . .missed you guys
Elissa. . . . .i missed you!
Elissa. . . . .we're talking about losses, something you know much about
Starseed. . . . .:)
*** DancingLeaves (dancing920@***.cp-tel.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
TF88. . . . .their journey does not end just because their physical journey HERE concluded
RevRandy. . . . .I know that in our cases, it is obvious that Rikkity's journey with us continues ... but all the other journeys do too
Elissa. . . . .we're talking about letting go and forgiving ourselves and guilt
lostmom. . . . .how?
RevRandy. . . . .there is no way that any of us living with such loss will live out another moment of our lives without their presence/influence deeply felt
Elissa. . . . .something else i've learned is that the relationship i had with rikkity is not contained in her physical body... it's within me, and always will be
lostmom. . . . .how does one ever forgive yourself?
RevRandy. . . . .first, by not letting the loss obscure what was given
*** Marie1 (juanaj@***.cas-kit.golden.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . . .by accepting that which we had no control over, lostmom
Elissa. . . . .i think a lot of the "could haves, would haves, should haves" are a way of trying to maintain that illusion of control
lostmom. . . . .But how do you know that if you had only taken that one second...
lostmom. . . . .that things would have been different
RevRandy. . . . .the greatest gifts (and I mean physical ones) have been those I have not asked for, just been given --- why not the same spiritually
bluelight. . . . .lostmom we have NO control over these things
Elissa. . . . .maybe something else worse would have happened then, lostmom... it's their journey, not ours
RevRandy. . . . .if we think of life as a giant web of possibility and at any moment a great number of possible outcomes move from that point, how can we think we would know the infinite number of outcomes from any one change
TF88. . . . .I have been trying to cope with guilt over my cat's passing. I realize a cat doesn't sound as devastating as human loss, but I have great difficulty in getting past the "what ifs"
fang. . . . .i understand tf
fang. . . . .i have a hard time with those too
TF88. . . . .it is all I can do to try and be rational about feeling as though I caused her death
Elissa. . . . .tf, my cat is human so i understand
fang. . . . .furry humans lol
Elissa. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .human furballs
fang. . . . .but forgiving ones love us unconditionally
bluelight. . . . .think animals r as sacred as we r
fang. . . . .thank heavens i feel like i'm in good company
Elissa. . . . .they teach us about unconditional love, yes
RevRandy. . . . .ok - think about this idea that all of us are playing with - that if we had done something different, we could have stopped death
lostmom. . . . .Randy, I have a hard question that I truly need answered
RevRandy. . . . .does that mean that we also had the power of birth?
lostmom. . . . .I really hate it when you do that lol
lostmom. . . . .make sense that is!!!
Elissa. . . . .you too lol
RevRandy. . . . .or do we have some faith in some creative power which transcends the individual us, and is more inclusive
RevRandy. . . . .sorry
Elissa. . . . .it happens once in a while lol
Elissa. . . . .great point, rr
RevRandy. . . . .to assume our complicity in these losses, IMHO, can be a little presumptuous ....
RevRandy. . . . .but it does allow us to feel control in a situation that is out of our control .... I can't make them alive, but I can make myself feel guilty
RevRandy. . . . .and what a waste of energy that is
fang. . . . .light bulb, huh i never thought of that
lostmom. . . . .there he goes AGAIN!!! lol
RevRandy. . . . .sorry :-)
Elissa. . . . .guilt is a way of holding on to the past, too... keeping that connection to the physical event of the death when we're afraid of losing everything by letting go
fang. . . . .i feel that one elissa
Elissa. . . . .most of us do, fang
RevRandy. . . . .which reminds me of another PtoP
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2 "If we thwart the changes that will happen despite us, we begin to die a little spiritually.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2What we hold onto in fear keeps us from achieving what will take its place.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2We are never led to a place where we lose but do not also gain.
lostmom. . . . .but where do you place the quilt when you have survived
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"We call a child who does not grow beyond a certain physical point 'stunted,'
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we call a person who does not grow beyond a certain point 'intellectually retarded,'
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we call a person who does not grow beyond a certain point 'socially arrested.'
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2What about those who do not grow beyond a certain point spiritually.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"So feel the sadness but know it has to do with you, not with anything or anyone else.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It is the sadness of loss and grief portrayed through the vision of fear,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2without the hope of promise that is always attendant." (9/27/97 - G#42)
lostmom. . . . .I know that He will only give us what we can carry...
TF88. . . . .lostmom, that almost sounds like our guilt has been placed upon us, but in actuality, we have created our feelings of guilt.
Elissa. . . . ."So feel the sadness but know it has to do with you, not with anything or anyone else."
RevRandy. . . . .And remember that all the world's religious traditions offer us hope on the other side of loss .... life on the other side of death
Elissa. . . . . "It is the sadness of loss and grief portrayed through the vision of fear,
Elissa. . . . .without the hope of promise that is always attendant."
*** Lewis (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .that's the promise - the promise of hope, if we can get beyond our assumed feelings of guilt
fang. . . . .i hope you'all are planning on putting all of this in a book ? hopefully !!!
Elissa. . . . .we are, fang
fang. . . . .yea yea yea
Elissa. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .so find us a publisher!!!
bluelight. . . . .that's what i keep telling them fang!!
Elissa. . . . .all talk, no action lol
RevRandy. . . . .we would if we could, but we ....
bluelight. . . . .that's so true that we have no control over birth either..i gotta remember that one
Starseed. . . . .its a big step to realize you don't have to feel guilty
RevRandy. . . . .and a scary step - it requires faith in self and in existence
Lewis. . . . .hi, what are we chattin bout?
RevRandy. . . . .we are chatting, right now, about forgiving ourselves
Elissa. . . . .we're talking about guilt, forgiveness, and letting go
Elissa. . . . .star, would you share more about how you dealt with that?
Starseed. . . . .well after my brother and my mom...by the time Dawn passed i was starting to realize it was ok to let go it was their path
Starseed. . . . .and that i didn't have to feel guilty because i understood this
Elissa. . . . .big learning, star... that was mine too
RevRandy. . . . .Star - sometimes we have to be shown something (the path) many times before we see it
Starseed. . . . .i needed to make my family see that it was ok to stop feeling sad and guilty
bluelight. . . . .well i have something else to let go of .. is it allowed?
RevRandy. . . . .sure
bluelight. . . . .thinking i said something that hurt someone
bluelight. . . . .esp. people i used to know when i c them
RevRandy. . . . .ah yes --
bluelight. . . . .i know it's trivial to what we're talking about but it confuses me what it is
Elissa. . . . .and now you see things differently, but then you didn't realize you were hurting them?
Lewis. . . . .how could you hurt them, they were gone
lostmom. . . . .i can answer that lewis
fang. . . . .i feel i hurt others after my mom's passing
Lewis. . . . .how?
lostmom. . . . .by holding on to them here...
lostmom. . . . .they can't reach the place where they are to go
Elissa. . . . .ah
RevRandy. . . . .but why take responsibility for other people's feelings?
lostmom. . . . .it is easy to say
lostmom. . . . .hard to do
fang. . . . .by being so hurt not wanting to be near others who cared for me
fang. . . . .someone told me that when you hurt, you hurt others
Elissa. . . . .fang, when you're grieving you have to take care of your own needs... it's the only way to move through the process
RevRandy. . . . .yep - this is hard work ... and it is intentional work, chosen work if we would rather live somewhere other than with our guilt
RevRandy. . . . .and I also think it is a cycle - we hurt because we feel responsible/guilty and when we act out of that hurt we then think we have even more to be responsible for/guilty about
Elissa. . . . .lostmom, don't forget it's always a 2-way street... you can't force anyone to stay if they want to go
lostmom. . . . .i know.... thats the hardest part
TF88. . . . .fang we don't always hurt others when we are hurting, although there may be potential for that to happen.
RevRandy. . . . .we trap ourselves by not seeking our own forgiveness
RevRandy. . . . .and sometimes our hurt keeps us from seeing how forgiving, understanding, loving those others are (even as we act out)
RevRandy. . . . .it is hard to see clearly through tears
fang. . . . .amen
lostmom. . . . .2 times amen
Elissa. . . . .what you can do is realize your relationship is different, change with them, accept their new existence and then you can still have a relationship... as we do with rikkity
*** Sugah (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .it is very different (and not different at all) to the process of losing a child to adulthood
RevRandy. . . . .if we don't accept that they will change, we lose them by not admitting the change
*** bluebell63 (ADCjava@216.226.5.***) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
lostmom. . . . .elissa, what of those who take there leave...themselves
Elissa. . . . .lostmom, they are on their own journey too
bluelight. . . . .so any guilt whatever for keeps us from seeing responding giving receiving as we could if we didnt' hold onto it
Elissa. . . . .sure blue, but it's also normal
bluelight. . . . .whew at least we're normal :0
bluelight. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .:)
RevRandy. . . . .hey folks - lots more to talk about - but E and I need a short break -
Starseed. . . . .ok
lostmom. . . . .sure
RevRandy. . . . .keep on talking while we take 6 or 7 ... and then come back for more
Elissa. . . . .but first, a small exercise...
RevRandy. . . . .exercise - o dear -
RevRandy. . . . .I should lie down
Elissa. . . . .if you can and want to, go outside during the break for a few minutes,
Elissa. . . . .breathe deeply...
RevRandy. . . . .(cough cough)
Elissa. . . . .and feel and see the healing and renewal in love that is in the world tonight
RevRandy. . . . .(the moon is radiant!)
Elissa. . . . .bbbbbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

RevRandy. . . . .ok - she is back and ready for action
RevRandy. . . . .and so are we all
RevRandy. . . . .so,
RevRandy. . . . .while we certainly could talk more about forgiving ourselves, we are only a third of the way along our journey
RevRandy. . . . .how about forgiving others:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"If you impose your expectations on others, you will drive them away.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2But if you let them be themselves and accept them as they are, they will be there even more.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Atticus suggested that you had to walk around in the other's being before you could know. Sound advice." (5/6/97 - O#25)
*** LibraZebra (ADCjava@***.40.alltel.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .does this strike any chords with you in thinking about people who could use your forgiveness (or maybe you could your forgiveness of them)
Elissa. . . . .or letting them go
lostmom. . . . .i have a big problem with this chord
RevRandy. . . . .yep - but hear that phrase - letting them go
bluelight. . . . .strikes a chord
RevRandy. . . . .how so
Starseed. . . . .its just accepting them in a different way
lostmom. . . . .some people when forgiven only strike again...
RevRandy. . . . .ok - sure - but let's pondering this one deeper
bluelight. . . . .then forgive again
lostmom. . . . .is he going to be right again?
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"So if there is no evil and love is all there is,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2what should we do with people who seem bent on hurting or taking advantage of us?
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2That is such a problem for so many people.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2You think if you're strong and loving that means you have to give, even to those who don't give in return,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2even to those who give only pain in return.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Try to remember that your choices will not make or break someone else.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Try to remember that you can, and really must, focus your energy where it will be helpful and creative and loving.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2But you don't need to focus your energy on feeding those who don't love you back.
RevRandy. . . . .Give them understanding, if you want to, but don't give them your energy to feed on.
RevRandy. . . . .That will only sustain their need and not fill it. To fill it, they must find ways to create their own energy.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"What about loving our enemies?
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Loving your enemies does not mean feeding them and making it possible for them to go on hurting you!
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Loving your enemies simply means acknowledging them as fellow human beings who are on a journey of their own.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It means not making them into more than they are. Got it? Ok, good. And with that, I gotta go. Goodbye." (11/1/98 - R#23)
Starseed. . . . .good one
*** suwan (stiara@***.tznet.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
LibraZebra. . . . .Surely deeper
Elissa. . . . .((((((suwan))))))
suwan. . . . .Hi!!
lostmom. . . . .like i said...
*** Dj (ADCjava@208.207.68.***) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
lostmom. . . . .there he goes again!
RevRandy. . . . .not me - Rikkity
Elissa. . . . .lol lostmom... that's rikkity
bluelight. . . . .is it loving enuf to say prayer each time someone hurts u?
Elissa. . . . .sure blue
RevRandy. . . . .if it is a way, blue, to let go of the pain and the hurt, and not keep yourself connected to it
RevRandy. . . . .forgiveness is not only about letting the other get on with their lives, it is also about letting yourself get on with yours
bluelight. . . . .yes
RevRandy. . . . .sometimes we do not forgive others because we are so familiar with the pattern of hurt that we are fearful of changing it
lostmom. . . . .very true
bluelight. . . . .i forgive .. then i forget i forgave :0 !!
Elissa. . . . .recognizing that the other person has their own lessons to learn... and also that your job is not to make it easier for them lol
lostmom. . . . .i like that elissa
RevRandy. . . . .again, taking responsibility for their feelings .... or letting go of them
lostmom. . . . .but sometimes its the fear of return that we fear
bluelight. . . . .that's what it is lostmom .. FEAR .. in you ..
lostmom. . . . .oh, i know
Elissa. . . . .o good point lostmom
Elissa. . . . .so how do we get past that fear?
lostmom. . . . .thats the question
lostmom. . . . .HOW?
Elissa. . . . .sometimes we just have to live with the question... being aware that fear is keeping us in a pattern that isn't healthy
RevRandy. . . . .there is a big difference between saying/thinking "It isn't possible" and "How could it be possible" for me to forgive so and so
TF88. . . . .it helps to recognize the pattern first, so we can see it when it's happening
Elissa. . . . .yep
Elissa. . . . .then we can change and stop reacting
RevRandy. . . . .in the Buddhist tradition, to be mindful .... the key to all things is to be mindful of what is there
RevRandy. . . . .So, how are we all at forgiving others? hmmmmm
Elissa. . . . .sometimes better than others lol
Starseed. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .or do we choose the hurt rather than the reconciliation
RevRandy. . . . .I forgive you for that
Elissa. . . . .i forgive you too :)
lostmom. . . . .can you forgive someone and still not allow them access to you
TF88. . . . .maybe it depends on how long the pattern has been going on?
RevRandy. . . . .absolutely, lostmom
lostmom. . . . .thirty years...
fang. . . . .i can say i try
fang. . . . .get lost in the anger sometimes
Elissa. . . . .yes lostmom! that's what rikkity was saying, in part
LibraZebra. . . . .People have wronged everyone in here, I must assume. We should forgive, we should let bygones be bygones, and we'd be much freer people.
RevRandy. . . . .that's right - it frees us as much as frees them
TF88. . . . .but should and allow ourselves are two different concepts
Elissa. . . . ."Give them understanding, if you want to, but don't give them your energy to feed on."
LibraZebra. . . . .But the old adage goes, "@*#^ me once, shame on you. @*#^ me twice, shame on me.
bluelight. . . . .lots of times we're hurt for things no one meant to hurt us about
bluelight. . . . .and we hurt others unknowingly also
suwan. . . . .ahhh Rev a question, does forgiveness always mean reconciliation
lostmom. . . . .EXCELLENT QUESTION
RevRandy. . . . .suwan I think it does.... but with a catch
RevRandy. . . . .and here's the catch
lostmom. . . . .had to be one
RevRandy. . . . .reconciliation of what with what
fang. . . . .what if your painted into a corner?
RevRandy. . . . .and I believe the reconciliation is not with the other person, but with oneself, with the part of oneself that has been held hostage by that hurt that was unforgiven
suwan. . . . .well there are people in my life who I have worked very hard to forgive, but I still don't want them in my life
fang. . . . .isn't just forgiving the person, not necessarily the act ???
fang. . . . .amen suwan
Elissa. . . . .and that's ok suwan
Starseed. . . . .good point
lostmom. . . . .yup
RevRandy. . . . .right suwan - it is not about them, it is about you - it is voluntarily saying that you are going to move beyond it, them
Sugah. . . . .nods her head yes
bluelight. . . . .i'll have to say i've learned more by keeping the persons in my life tho
RevRandy. . . . .and it is taking control of the situation
suwan. . . . .yes I can do that, I can take it out of my consciousness (with some difficulty) but I can't go back for more
Elissa. . . . .forgiveness doesn't mean we have to play with them... it just means we need to understand our own part in the relationship
Elissa. . . . .and then let it go
fang. . . . .co dependency ;)
bluelight. . . . .but u can't always get rid of these people.. that's when u learn something else.. that u can live with them
RevRandy. . . . .one of the key lessons that Rikkity gives is that you cannot arrive into a future worth having by looking backwards
suwan. . . . .no blue I can't
bluelight. . . . .didnt' mean everyone suwan.. some
bluelight. . . . .at least at this time u can't
lostmom. . . . .what do you do in the case of a parent
lostmom. . . . .how do you just let go of them
Elissa. . . . .there's a difference between getting rid of someone and not allowing them to feed on your energy
RevRandy. . . . .our society has lost the art of cordiality -- by which one can relate to others in a polite way but allow no point of entry to emotional baggage ...
lostmom. . . . .binog!!!
Elissa. . . . .i had that problem with my mother, lostmom
Elissa. . . . .it was my reacting i let go, not her... and the rest resolved itself
lostmom. . . . .bingo...that is
bluelight. . . . .geez RevRandy u say it so well.. thank u
RevRandy. . . . .and learn to be consistent in response to them ...
RevRandy. . . . .yw
bluelight. . . . .that's what i mean {whew}
Starseed. . . . .i kind of like binog!!!
lostmom. . . . .me too
Elissa. . . . .binog is good with nutmeg on top
RevRandy. . . . .and why should we go to all of this work (BINOG!)
*** Pinky (ADCjava@***.ns.sympatico.ca) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
bluelight. . . . .binog?
Elissa. . . . .lol... secret word, star?
Starseed. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .why should we do all of this work on forgiveness
Elissa. . . . .aaaaaa "should"???????
RevRandy. . . . .this brings us to the third part of this journey of this evening
fang. . . . .i was just getting ready to ask tooo??? binog?
bluelight. . . . .cuz it's good for youse n mese
*** journey (ptomli4650@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .and for them creeps too
lostmom. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .i like chocolate binog, too
bluelight. . . . .lololol
lostmom. . . . .french vanilla for me
Elissa. . . . .hi journey
RevRandy. . . . .binog is tonight's secret word - just invented (scroll up to see)
journey. . . . .Hi Elissa and Rev and room!
RevRandy. . . . .hey journey
bluelight. . . . .binog makes my feet feel good HAHAHA
fang. . . . .oh no rev, you gonna make me go back?
lostmom. . . . .kinky blue!
RevRandy. . . . .and remember, binog is gonib spelled backwards
bluelight. . . . .:0
Starseed. . . . .especially the ones with the curly little tails
Elissa. . . . .how about chicken binog when you're sick? yuck
*** Carol (gezobezo@***.epix.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
* Elissa writes in her book: 1 demerit each for journey and carol for lateness
RevRandy. . . . .seriously folks
lostmom. . . . .too late
bluelight. . . . .and the 3rd part ??
RevRandy. . . . .thanks blue
Elissa. . . . .we better move on lol
Starseed. . . . .k
lostmom. . . . .k
RevRandy. . . . .in the equation
RevRandy. . . . .I forgive myself
RevRandy. . . . .I forgive others
RevRandy. . . . .and then
RevRandy. . . . .I begin again in love.
lostmom. . . . .now that's too much to ask
RevRandy. . . . .Here's a PtoP:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2 "This is about love.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2There is nothing you can do to earn it and there is nothing you can do to lose it.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Love to the universe is like air to the physical body.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It is life.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It is the sustaining force and the element that infuses and animates all there is.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2If you exist, you are loved. It has nothing to do with who you are.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It has to do with what you experienced and how you were treated by others.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It has to do with trust, and trust is fragile and easily broken.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2You can relearn it, but it takes work and openness to the love of the universe.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"My wish for you is that you may be able to feel that love as the continuing background to your life--
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2kind of like a soundtrack.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2A lovetrack, if you will.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Listen to it.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2it will help you let go and the trust will grow from it, as a theme reveals itself in a symphony.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2At first all you hear is individual notes,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2but as the piece develops the notes form a pattern and you begin to hear a wholeness that you can remember--
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2that can become part of your being and your memory, and is always available to you to recall and relive.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It becomes your own.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"So it is with love and trust.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It takes some listening, some hearing, and a lot of remembering.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Focus on those things and you will be rewarded with peace of mind and a sense of spiritual continuity and a deeper wisdom.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2It will help you understand the abundance of life and allow you to live wholly and purposefully and, yes, even joyfully.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Listen to the love and hear your purpose and possibilities and persistence.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Love is what binds us each to the other, and it is not dependent on time or space or behavior." (4/6/97 - R#16)
lostmom. . . . .but randy, i have seen life that has no known love for other lifes
lostmom. . . . .where do you put those people
RevRandy. . . . .but that is them - not you
lostmom. . . . .thank you...i was beginning to think it was me
RevRandy. . . . .some spiritual entities are just plain mistakes (!) no easy way to put that
RevRandy. . . . .and they will have no continuity, no persistence
fang. . . . .huh got one in my house lol
bluelight. . . . .so the Real prob is realizing all this love {sigh} {smile}
RevRandy. . . . .yep - and getting the stuff out of the way that is obscuring your view of it
bluelight. . . . .explain that one please RR?
RevRandy. . . . .which one?
bluelight. . . . .those last few
bluelight. . . . .just plain mistakes.. who?
Elissa. . . . .that's the challenge and the greatest gift blue
suwan. . . . .hmmmm? I don't get it either
RevRandy. . . . . you mean about a lack of continuity?
suwan. . . . .no getting stuff out of the way
bluelight. . . . .what people r the mistakes?
RevRandy. . . . .rikkity has shared with us that we are all combinations of simpler spiritual matter, and sometimes the combinations come into this world
bluelight. . . . .entities
RevRandy. . . . .in a form that cannot be sustained .... that suck in energy, that are poisonous, are destructive
Elissa. . . . .black holes
RevRandy. . . . .and those entities do not survive the transition from life back to the other side - they are disassembled into their component spiritual energy
bluelight. . . . .and i thot those were the ones who were at beginning of learning..
RevRandy. . . . .there is a difference between those who mean well and just waste energy and those who do not mean well and suck energy from others
Elissa. . . . .that's right blue... but the really "evil" ones are disassembled and they're always first-timers
lostmom. . . . .i truly believe that some spirits lose their way
lostmom. . . . .once they are here
TF88. . . . .lose their way, or never find their way?
lostmom. . . . .no lose. they start out meaning well and never get there
TF88. . . . .I'm not sure how we can ever know where someone else is supposed to "get" and if they got there or not.
Elissa. . . . .tf, we can't... only they can know
RevRandy. . . . .now, suwan, what I meant about getting the stuff out of the way ...
RevRandy. . . . .is that if you are using energy feeling guilty, or in keeping a hurt from someone else alive, in other words not forgiving yourself or others,
RevRandy. . . . .you can't see what could be seen clearly available in and around you - love
suwan. . . . .you are right about that
suwan. . . . .it is well hidden
Elissa. . . . .not accepting yourself or others as they are, how can you feel the love
bluelight. . . . .i think often when we can't get along with someone it is our love that is shut down that is causing the problem
bluelight. . . . .which causes us to blame ..always c it as someone else's fault
*** Terri (ADCjava@***.tnt14.minneapolis.mn.da.uu.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
bluelight. . . . .interesting E
lostmom. . . . .randy, is it possible that a person who is hurtful here was put here for that purpose?
RevRandy. . . . .I don't see it as purposeful - no way
Elissa. . . . .NO
fang. . . . .i think they just want to cause pain for others
LibraZebra. . . . .Well, is everything for a purpose?
Elissa. . . . .sorry for shouting
lostmom. . . . .no need elissa
fang. . . . .i used to be that way, but have changed
TF88. . . . .it's my understanding that we don't come here to teach others lessons, nor sacrifice ourselves so that they learn.
TF88. . . . .although we can certainly also accomplish adding to other's learning
RevRandy. . . . .we are not sent lesson like that .... and purpose of some things may not be connected to our learning
Elissa. . . . .one big mistake in thinking we all seem to make is that people do things for or to or because of others... try to see it as something they are doing for their own needs and you will come closer to understanding them
RevRandy. . . . .TF - I like that - we are here to do an addition, a connecting,
RevRandy. . . . .yes, E
lostmom. . . . .exactly E
suwan. . . . .well I don't know anyone who lives just to cause pain for someone else but I know a lot of people who don't put out love
fang. . . . .i guess it is still free will if we want to connect or not huh?
Elissa. . . . .it's always our choice, fang
RevRandy. . . . .and this forgiveness route is a way to try to move beyond those acts that touch us but which are not really about us
bluelight. . . . .suwan when u put find yourself putting out more love u'll b surprised the people u'll know who do also
RevRandy. . . . .love is a much more available resource than hurt if we could only get beyond our focus on the hurts
lostmom. . . . .that right, you see love in all
bluelight. . . . .love is irresistible..
LibraZebra. . . . .I've met a few that I think are truly destructive, but I have seen many more that are such shining lights !
TF88. . . . .I think love is often disguised behind hurtful actions
TF88. . . . .it's love expressed in the "wrong" ways
RevRandy. . . . .inept lovers often cause pain
LibraZebra. . . . .Everyone should know what is the "wrong way" to love.
bluelight. . . . .we also have to b understanding of others' faults.. that is love
RevRandy. . . . .or better should know love without blinders and filters and guilt and blame
lostmom. . . . .if it were only that easy
Starseed. . . . .that would be unconditional
*** zee (bayridge1@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . . .is it disguised, or is it that the person's needs are getting mixed into the love they're giving, tf?
RevRandy. . . . .BINOG!
TF88. . . . .right E, their needs are mixed in
fang. . . . .but to what point, do we have to accept faults????
Sugah. . . . .((((zee)))
RevRandy. . . . .how can we know what is a fault?
RevRandy. . . . .for example, Mohammed's faith was seen as a fault by many
zee. . . . .Hello everyone
fang. . . . .i'd consider lying a fault, if done consecutively
journey. . . . .i think when judgements are suspended it opens the way for love to be seen and experienced
LibraZebra. . . . .Okay, journey. Good one.
LibraZebra. . . . .And for a selfish or destructive purpose (lying)
bluelight. . . . .accept ..then u can think about something else
*** Sandy (sandy@12.23.105.***) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .well folks, it is almost time to call it quits -
fang. . . . .oh no
RevRandy. . . . .so I invite you to take these thoughts with you for the week
lostmom. . . . .come on not yet
bluelight. . . . .lasso him fang
RevRandy. . . . .and ask yourself
RevRandy. . . . .can I forgive myself
RevRandy. . . . .can I forgive others
RevRandy. . . . .and can I begin again in love?
Elissa. . . . .we see faults, but maybe that's just a reflection of our own values
bluelight. . . . .o E there ya go just like RR .. u say it soo well
Elissa. . . . .:)
RevRandy. . . . .she does, doesn't she
lostmom. . . . .I have to tell you guys,
bluelight. . . . .just like u also.. and Rickitty!
lostmom. . . . .I look forward to these little chats
RevRandy. . . . .thank you - and we do too!!
bluelight. . . . .me too
lostmom. . . . .you have taught me so much in a short time
bluelight. . . . .3 cheers for E RR and R ! :D
Elissa. . . . .and you have taught us, too, lostmom
RevRandy. . . . .you have taught yourself so much!
Starseed. . . . .(((((((RR& E ))))))))))
lostmom. . . . .then perhaps you have given me a place to learn!!!
LibraZebra. . . . .I've just been sitting back, and I know I've learned a great deal. In the spirit of lostmom, Thanks to everyone!
Elissa. . . . .thanks to you libra, and everyone else who contributed tonight!
RevRandy. . . . .AND NOW --- time to say goodnight
journey. . . . .wish i could have gotten here earlier...always thought provoking chat in here, thanks Rev and Elissa
journey. . . . .and room too
Starseed. . . . .nite Rev and thanx
bluelight. . . . .sniff.. nite nite RR
suwan. . . . .Nite Rev!
Sugah. . . . .nite Rev thanks ;-)
RevRandy. . . . .be well all
Marie1. . . . .nite Rev
bluelight. . . . .thank u all for a wonderful evening
TF88. . . . .night randy
lostmom. . . . .nite RR
lostmom. . . . .nite Elissa, see you next week
TF88. . . . .night Elissa
Elissa. . . . . 13,2!Elissa rainbow.mid 2,13 :o)
bluelight. . . . .i learn something every time i come or to ponder something.. sometimes i ponder all week :0
TF88. . . . .night lostmom
Elissa. . . . .it shows, blue... you getting smart :)
bluelight. . . . .LOL
journey. . . . .me too bluelight, pondering is good for us :)
bluelight. . . . .yes journey
Starseed. . . . .well guys gotta run hope to catch you next week
Elissa. . . . .nite star
Starseed. . . . .((((((Elissa))))))))))))
Elissa. . . . .love ya gf
Starseed. . . . .you2
Elissa. . . . .i gotta go too... love all yous guys
Session Close: Sun Mar 19 23:16:58 2000

Logs of Previous Chats


Table Of Contents

Last Update: 5/18/2013
Web Author:
the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed., LPC, NCC
Copyright 2001-2013 by the Rev Dr Randolph and Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed.

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED