log022700

Session Start: Sun Feb 27 20:46:35 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"Mirrors" 2,9Sunday 2,11February 27 0,12at 9pm 2,13EST ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

RevRandy. . . . .OK - let us begin
RevRandy. . . . .with our usual words of invocation
RevRandy. . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . . .and guided in all ways gracious.
RevRandy. . . . .A, YES!
Elissa. . . . .amen~
bluelight. . . . .amen
TF88. . . . .amen
fang. . . . .amen
suwan. . . . .Hi everyone
RevRandy. . . . .HELLO Suwan
*** babylove (ADCjava@208.9.148.***) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .ok - all seriousness aside - let's see what Rikkity had for us this last week.
RevRandy. . . . .it was on friday morning, her usual time to bring us guests
RevRandy. . . . .and this is how it all started
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "And now, our first guest: a hedgehog from Greenwich." [silence]
RevRandy. . . . . 15,3E: "He doesn't talk much, does he."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "Not at all. And why do you assume it's a male.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2She's insulted and will not speak even more.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2She's leaving with Sandy's assistance.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Put her down. Oooo yes, now she's talking... or should I say squeaking.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Anyway, onward and downward. Here's DP."
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15DP: "Hello friends of the majestic one."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "I've got her well trained."
RevRandy. . . . .so, it would appear that we got off to a less than serious start ..... keep this passage in mind though
RevRandy. . . . .it may fool you
RevRandy. . . . .and then we had a conversation with DP (about whom we know very little)
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15"Listen. Why do you venerate others. Is it because they have what you do not.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15If you do not truly have it, you would not know to value it.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15But what you value in others is always in you, too.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15You see a mirror of yourself and that image is what you value.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15But listen, I want you to think about mirrors.
RevRandy. . . . .So, this discussion tonight about, among other things, mirrors
RevRandy. . . . .And before we start with the rest from DP, I wonder - how do you feel about mirrors?
bluelight. . . . .been thinking about them lately
RevRandy. . . . .how so
*** Deb (longjw@***.gso.bellsouth.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
bluelight. . . . .well i have come to conclusion that not all experience with others is meant to mirror
bluelight. . . . .but some is
bluelight. . . . .i've heard before that all is meant for mirroring
Elissa. . . . .i wonder if anyone else noticed that she didn't say "we see ourselves"... she said "what you value in others is always in you, too." that was interesting to me.
bluelight. . . . .yes so did i
RevRandy. . . . .(and we are back to the theme from OZ - if it wasn't in you, you wouldn't know to value it
bluelight. . . . .and also to devalue?
Elissa. . . . .yes blue
RevRandy. . . . .good point blue -
RevRandy. . . . .I wonder - when you look in a mirror, do you see a familiar figure, or a stranger?
RevRandy. . . . .sometimes I see the person I know --- but once in a while I hardly recognize myself
*** Lukesmom (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .well, let's see what DP goes on to say
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15There are four kinds: flat, distorted, concave, and convex. Ok.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15In a flat mirror you see the same proportions as in yourself;
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15so when another mirrors you in this way,
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15you see your inherent valuables in them in equal measure.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15We call these mirrors friends.
RevRandy. . . . .when I see in them what I value in me, in about the same way -- I connect
RevRandy. . . . .I can see it and me and them
RevRandy. . . . .does this make sense to you?
bluelight. . . . .yes altho this may be distorted also ..
bluelight. . . . .what we c in a friend might not b same in us even tho we think it is?
RevRandy. . . . .appear flat, but not be???? Or the distortion of the mirror matches the distortion of your perception
bluelight. . . . .interesting
Elissa. . . . .we're all more comfortable with those we recognize as being similar to ourselves, aren't we?
bluelight. . . . .right
suwan. . . . .hmmm, no opposites attract?
Elissa. . . . .and yes, blue, i think you're right... sometimes we think they are similar but they really are not
Elissa. . . . .and sometimes they think we are similar, but we know we're really not
bluelight. . . . .yes
Elissa. . . . .suwan, if someone is completely opposite, would you even understand them?
RevRandy. . . . .when we talk about that kind of difference, of attraction, it is more often complement than opposition
RevRandy. . . . .I am thinking as well about an offer made me by my optometrist
RevRandy. . . . .to make me a pair of glasses that will distort things to undo the desired distortion of my contacts so at night I can act as if I have no correction at all
RevRandy. . . . .two sets of distortions to make up for each other
Lukesmom. . . . .I was afraid he was offering to make you a pair of rose colored glasses, Rev! lol
Elissa. . . . .how does that apply to this, randy?
RevRandy. . . . .(LOL Lukesmom - I would love a pair)
Elissa. . . . .lol lukesmom
Elissa. . . . .actually i once had a pair
bluelight. . . . .rev randy i want your glasses !
Lukesmom. . . . .I have been accused of looking at the world that way!
Elissa. . . . .by those who don't see the way you do no doubt, lukesmom :)
RevRandy. . . . .I think it is possible for us to think we are seeing a flat mirror when our distortions of perception match the patterns of distortions in the mirror -
RevRandy. . . . .like those couples we say - Boy, are they weird, and are they suited to each other
Elissa. . . . .true randy lol
RevRandy. . . . .anyhooooo
*** RevAngelsHorizons (AngelsHor4@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .here's some more of what we got:
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15"In concave mirrors the images are larger than we sense in us.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15They are magnified.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15Those people we call gurus or masters or wise ones or wise guys, etc.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15But remember, it is only perception that magnifies their traits.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15If the mirror of our perceptions were flat, we would see them equal to us.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15They are not greater than we, we just see them that way.
RevRandy. . . . .all the truly great masters have always denied their own greatness, knowing it was not greater than anyone else's, just more perceived
Elissa. . . . .who is in your concave mirror?
bluelight. . . . .ummm.. presidents who rn't supposed to need to go to b/room *giggle*
Lukesmom. . . . .does that include people like Sylvia Brown and John?
TF88. . . . .it depends who is looking into the mirror lukesmom
Elissa. . . . .if you perceive them as somehow more worthy or better than you
RevRandy. . . . .as having something that you are lacking
Lukesmom. . . . .well, I was thinking about us all being able to use that gift that all of us are supposed to have
RevRandy. . . . .I am reminded of the phrase "larger than life"
TF88. . . . ."up on a pedestal"
Elissa. . . . .it's what you have and value, but don't realize how much you have in yourself
RevRandy. . . . .again, back to the first part of the passage - if we didn't have a sense of it in ourselves, we couldn't see it in others in any measure, much less to be magnified
bluelight. . . . .no one appreciated my o so light humor?
RevRandy. . . . .caught it Blue - the unreal people of the world
Elissa. . . . .yes, blue i did and it was most appropriate :)
bluelight. . . . .:D
bluelight. . . . .hehe
Elissa. . . . .no one on tv went to the bathroom in the 50s either
Elissa. . . . .that must have been painful lol
RevRandy. . . . .but Elissa asked a good question - who do you see magnified in your life's mirror?
RevRandy. . . . .or whom?
bluelight. . . . .one friend i know
RevRandy. . . . .I think many of us fall into a trap of doing this with celebrities
RevRandy. . . . .and I know a few do this to ministers
RevRandy. . . . .(heehee)
Elissa. . . . .a few?????????????
bluelight. . . . .really .. and DOCTORS!
RevRandy. . . . .Yes, Tammy Faye, they do
Elissa. . . . .not lawyers, though lol
RevRandy. . . . .o, yes, Doctors
Lukesmom. . . . .oh...no....good one, Rev
bluelight. . . . .not i however .. just u guyz lol
Elissa. . . . .lol blue
Elissa. . . . .and mediums, actors, royalty, etc., etc., etc.
RevRandy. . . . .and, I will venture out on some shaky ground, some do for those who have died
bluelight. . . . .YES i've noticed this .. they become saints after death
bluelight. . . . .ordinary beasts do!
Elissa. . . . .o yes
bluelight. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .my grandfather achieved knighthood in his wife's eyes only on death
bluelight. . . . .cute
bluelight. . . . .also funny
fang. . . . .you seem to forget the bad, and remember mostly the good after their death
Lukesmom. . . . .guilty
Elissa. . . . .lukesmom is guilty!
Lukesmom. . . . .absolutely
Elissa. . . . .say more please?
bluelight. . . . .{--- only guilty on one count
Elissa. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .blue gets only 1 demerit then
RevRandy. . . . .but, fang, I am thinking even more not of just forgetting the bad, but magnifying the good
RevRandy. . . . .using the concave mirror approach to distort reality
fang. . . . .you feel it's disrespectful of the dead to be angry at them
*** Cathyjo (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Carol. . . . .my mother was always displeased with my father, until he died
RevRandy. . . . .hey, if they make you angry, go for it
bluelight. . . . .i don't fang
Elissa. . . . .not very healthy, fang... in fact that can bring many psychological problems
Lukesmom. . . . .I started to do that with my son, but youngest put the skids to that!! we laugh now at the un-angelic things he used to do
bluelight. . . . .that sounds good lukesmom
Lukesmom. . . . .it is, Blue
RevRandy. . . . .flattening out the mirror
*** Marie1 (juanaj@***.cas-kit.golden.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .so the images are real and realistic
fang. . . . .understanding why i'm so weird then lol
Elissa. . . . .that's what makes us real! how can you remember someone as they really were if youdon't remember the not-so-good stuff?
Marie1. . . . .good point elissa
RevRandy. . . . .there is a converse to this too:
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15"And, with convex, they appear lesser and we judge them accordingly.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15We think they need help and guidance, etc.,
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15but again it is our perception and
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15the lens of our mirror that creates the image.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15They in a flat mirror would be us.
RevRandy. . . . .some we may remember as worse than they were
RevRandy. . . . .or we may see them now as other than they are
Lukesmom. . . . .really? don't you think we all tend to forget the bad?
bluelight. . . . .i don't like that one :(
bluelight. . . . .cuz it's true probably lol
RevRandy. . . . .for any of us who work in helping professions, we have to be careful to not end up viewing people in convex mirrors
RevRandy. . . . .seeing them as needy, lesser than we are - so we become their saviours
Elissa. . . . .sometimes we see others as less than we are in some way because we think we have more of what we value than we really do or we think they don't have as much as they really do
Elissa. . . . .i think... still pondering all this
Marie1. . . . .so what is it should we know about the relation between concave and convex?
RevRandy. . . . .the ways that we bend our mirrors of perception, Marie, can determine how inaccurately we see others, and therefore see ourselves
Elissa. . . . .with concave we see others as superior to us, with convex we see them as inferior in some way, marie
Marie1. . . . .what is the relationship between the two?
bluelight. . . . .i wish we could talk about some extreme cases here for examples
RevRandy. . . . .ok blue
RevRandy. . . . .I will offer one -
Elissa. . . . .goodie
RevRandy. . . . .for many people, with deep seated prejudices about race, the mirror suddenly becomes convex when they meet some of another color
RevRandy. . . . .and they can only see that image as of someone much smaller, inferior, less valuable RevRandy. . . . .but the trick is as they devalue the image they see, they are actually devaluing themselves
RevRandy. . . . .can anyone else think of another case of either larger or smaller than reality thinking
bluelight. . . . .what about when u c someone doing something very 'unvaluable'?
Elissa. . . . .such as
RevRandy. . . . .how do you know it is unvaluable - unless you have already devalued it?
bluelight. . . . .anything we think is wrong
bluelight. . . . .say that requires by law a penalty .. to take it to the extreme k?
bluelight. . . . .then how does the mirror work?
RevRandy. . . . .so, we see a murderer, and see that as wrong -- but if we see that person only in that way, we find it ok to put them to death for it
bluelight. . . . .good point RevR
TF88. . . . .may I share a 2 line poem that I feel is fitting to this concept of perception?
Lukesmom. . . . .by all means, tf
Elissa. . . . .please tf
RevRandy. . . . .yep TF
TF88. . . . ."I do not grieve for what you have become. I grieve for having loved what you never were."
RevRandy. . . . .hmmmmmm
Elissa. . . . .ooooooooo good one
RevRandy. . . . .perception all right
Marie1. . . . .yes it is, thanks tf
Lukesmom. . . . .oh, gee.....how many of us are guilty of that one!
Elissa. . . . .that's the distortion... we think we love something about someone that was never really theirs. is that it, tf?
TF88. . . . .yes, E, exactly
TF88. . . . .I'm sorry I cannot recall the poet's name
bluelight. . . . .how bout finishing it but i do not grieve for what u will become eventually some place else
bluelight. . . . .o i just caught on tf ..
RevRandy. . . . .and a good segue into the next section of the Rikkity piece:
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15"And then the fun house mirror's distorted, and so the other becomes strange--
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15but no stranger than we.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15Remember, the image of the stranger in the fun house mirror is still you.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15So the question is not the image but what mirror are you using and who put it there:
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15you, they, someone else, culture, society, prejudice.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15You see what you want to see, when a flat mirror would show you you.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15So don't place too many on pedestals or too many beneath you,
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15because then you put yourself there, too; and where you belong is neither.
RevRandy. . . . . 2,15And now I go to sing that Carly Simon song. Bye."
bluelight. . . . .back to the murderer ..
RevRandy. . . . .yes
bluelight. . . . .how do we mirror that one behavior ..the murder..
bluelight. . . . .{--- hiding head now
Elissa. . . . .lol blue don't hide
bluelight. . . . .don't want to c i was a murderer once :0
RevRandy. . . . .we all have a capacity for violence in us
fang. . . . .don't we mirror stuff that's within them, not their acts?
RevRandy. . . . .yes fang -
fang. . . . .i actually know someone in prison for murder
fang. . . . .but he was a decent person when he was around me
bluelight. . . . .so we actually did this once eons ago?
bluelight. . . . .ok my first life maybe .. 10,000 lives ago
RevRandy. . . . .no
Elissa. . . . .i've been told i was once a murderous rogue during the crusades... and just look at me now! lol
RevRandy. . . . .turn around so we can get a full look
* Elissa twirls around
bluelight. . . . .E usofunny
bluelight. . . . .why u say no RevR .. it very well could b true of all of us?
RevRandy. . . . .what I was trying to say was that if we decide that we are above that person, and therefore can kill her/him for it, are we actually any different?
fang. . . . .no your right rev
*** Lisa8 (ADCjava@***.idirect.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .ty
bluelight. . . . .i understand now good point
Elissa. . . . .good point, randy
*** Bernadeta (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .if we allow distortions to determine what we see, we not only distort what we see, but also the seer.
RevRandy. . . . .one of the tests of a seer, a medium, is that s/he can be in touch with spirit accurately, without personal distortions
Elissa. . . . .very true... and in counseling that's true as well
RevRandy. . . . .(which may be why so many of us, with the inherent gift, don't seem to see ... we are looking into distorted mirrors)
bluelight. . . . .RevRandy can u explain that last one again please?
RevRandy. . . . .we all have the talent of sight, of second sight - but then how come so few seem to do it?
*** Jackie (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Elissa. . . . .it has to do with being able to listen, being able to stop projecting yourself and see/hear/sense what's out there
bluelight. . . . .because we r distorting the people around us?
RevRandy. . . . .maybe it is because we bring so many of our prejudices, filters, blinders, lenses, and distorted mirrors to the task
bluelight. . . . .i c
bluelight. . . . .how we break out of that ?
Marie1. . . . .elissa, so it is being able to look at what is happening and not assume something else that is not real?
Elissa. . . . .sure marie
suwan. . . . .hmmm angels?
RevRandy. . . . .what suwan?
suwan. . . . .well I frequently hear people interpret what I perceive as a spirit as an angel
suwan. . . . .just their own prejudice or mine
RevRandy. . . . .sounds like their prejudice - their choice of words - to deal with something in them
suwan. . . . .or mine
RevRandy. . . . .or both
Elissa. . . . .their interpretation of what you're seeing, suwan
Elissa. . . . .yes or both... but if it's your experience then it's your perception
*** beka (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
beka. . . . .hi guys!
Elissa. . . . .hey ((((((beka)))))
RevRandy. . . . .beka!
beka. . . . .smiles grins!
RevRandy. . . . .well, before we have our 10pmET break, here's what then happened in the session:
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "And now another guest. A Thomson's gazelle."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,3E: "Who's Thomson?"
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "I don't know. Usher, help the gazelle out."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,4Sandy: "Arrrrrrrrf."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "The strong, silent type. So far, a small silence and a strong silent type. Hmmmm. And now, GT."
Marie1. . . . .taking things at face value. kinda like looking at things objectively. treating everyone as equal because until we are in that person's shoes, we can not judge them accurately. even when we have come into a similar situation as someone else, each of us are different and interpret and respond to things differently.
Elissa. . . . .good summary, marie
RevRandy. . . . .different strokes from different folks - all of which can distort
RevRandy. . . . .but in this little interchange, we have the second of our silent guests - first a hedgehog, and now a gazelle
bluelight. . . . .RevRandy i've wondered if breaking out of this is possible just by ourselves or does it require more from within/without?
bluelight. . . . .i'm not very clear tonite i could state that better
RevRandy. . . . .Blue - hang in with that question if you can until a little later - I think the answer is coming - and (hint) it has to do with the hedgehog and the gazelle
bluelight. . . . .grreat RR thanks!
beka. . . . .(not having heard anything previously...) how about recognizing dissonances in patterns before us... or alternative explanations....
RevRandy. . . . .but what are the causes of the dissonance?
beka. . . . .break time
Elissa. . . . .sounds like multiculturalism, beka... breakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
bluelight. . . . .gee beka and i thot we were deep
*** GardenSpirit (vigil@***.1s.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
bluelight. . . . .i think tonite's presentation of Rickitty's is very helpful
RevRandy. . . . .ty
RevRandy. . . . .are we ready to get started
beka. . . . .yep
RevRandy. . . . .but back to Rikkity
*** carolyn (ADCjava@***.nwrk.grid.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .and her recent sessions with us (and her many friends)
RevRandy. . . . .for those joining us now - we have shared the details of a session that involved a silent hedgehog and an equally silent gazelle and some
RevRandy. . . . .deep pondering about seeing
RevRandy. . . . .ourselves in the mirrored images of flat, convex, concave, and distorted mirrors.
*** susie (ADCjava@***.lft.widomaker.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .I know that sounds a little bizarre, but here is some more:
*** angel (ADCjava@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15"Ok, get this. You think that you are normal and that, hey, like I'm strange.
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15See the hair... and the rings--ears, nose, nipples, lips. Strange, hmmm.
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15But when I appear to Africans they see me as strange--
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15but not for the rings, but for my whiteness.
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15when I appear to Muslims I am not strange for being white or for the rings,
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15but because my head is uncovered.
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15And to the Jews, being white and with rings and not having my head covered is nothing;
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15but why have I not shaved my hair, etc., etc., and all that s h i t.
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15You see, there ain't no norms... except for Norman Schwarzkopf.
RevRandy. . . . .This came from one known to us as GT
Elissa. . . . .i can imagine coming into this room for the first time and seeing that! it must sound pretty strange
bluelight. . . . .lol E
RevRandy. . . . .and I think it is provocative
Elissa. . . . .what we're talking about is our perceptions of ourselves and others and how they can be different according to what we value in ourselves
Marie1. . . . .hmm, rev, i don't know if i would agree with the first part of the statement :)
RevRandy. . . . .what part Marie
Marie1. . . . . but for my whiteness.
RevRandy. . . . .have to see GT to know, I guess
Marie1. . . . .personally, i would culture, but that is my own opinion.
Elissa. . . . .what is it you wouldn't agree with marie?
RevRandy. . . . .what we see as different, as differentiating, depends on who we are
RevRandy. . . . .and our cultural situation
Elissa. . . . .we see through ourselves and what may appear bizarre to one person is perfectly normal to someone else
RevRandy. . . . .what is familiar to some is alien to others (hello Al-li-en)
Marie1. . . . .i guess i am seeing things different right now :)
beka. . . . .say more, marie?
Marie1. . . . .i guess, i am forming an opinion based on western and carribean culture
beka. . . . .sure thing...
bluelight. . . . .things r easily misunderstood on here Marie .. say what u're thinking exactly
bluelight. . . . .i mean via typing instead of talking
Marie1. . . . .in Africa, i do agree with the point made that Africans will see " whiteness " as strange. But for Carribean and Western cultures, namely Canada and US, whiteness is something that many Blacks -Africans have been introduced to since birth. What they see as different, in an ongoing manner is the culture not the whiteness.
RevRandy. . . . .understand Marie -
bluelight. . . . .i c now Marie.. thanks
bluelight. . . . .and good point too M
beka. . . . .subtle point, M
beka. . . . .ALL HAS to do with expectations
beka. . . . .like the other day in class, one of my students said to me, "Dr. Wheeler, were you a hippie when you were young?"
beka. . . . .(after inwardly chuckling at the "hippie" and "when you were young part"
beka. . . . .I asked the student what led them to inquire, or "suspect"
beka. . . . .suspect this... and they said, why, you wear birkenstocks.... and so... they had expectations of what a teacher should look like
beka. . . . .and they weren't seeing what they expected in a teacher ('conservative adult behavior?), and so they sought AN EXPLANATION that would make sense
beka. . . . .of the divergent data....
RevRandy. . . . .just like GTs rings
beka. . . . .exactly...
Elissa. . . . .and so you were distorted in their eyes. a teacher can't wear birkenstocks, instead of them opening up their own definitions and perceptions, beka
beka. . . . .yes.... elissa...
beka. . . . .and so they were trying to figure me out... and did so with their pre-existing categories...
beka. . . . .and discomfort and fear
RevRandy. . . . .well, here's some more on this
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15"So the next time you go, ‘How strange,' remember
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15you're the one who is strange if you say that
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15because then you aren't connected to the bigger picture.
RevRandy. . . . . 3,15Ok, splitting. And why would you think my rings strange and not his hats."
RevRandy. . . . .what appears dissonant is only so in a limited field of perceptions
RevRandy. . . . .the pronouncement of strangeness belies a limited view
RevRandy. . . . .just like their birk issue
bluelight. . . . .i think we're all a little strange *giggle* but i like it !
RevRandy. . . . .a little????????
Elissa. . . . .i like it too :)
bluelight. . . . .lolol ..
RevRandy. . . . .speak for yourself- I like it big time
beka. . . . .it's quite a key to our inner terrain, whenever we think someone else is 'strange'
Elissa. . . . .o yes beka
RevRandy. . . . .yep - beka - back to what the mirrors reveal
Elissa. . . . .we can get very protective of our own distortions lol
beka. . . . .like the time in church, when i was talking with a kinda wild guy there, complimenting him on his mohawk.
beka. . . . .and somehow this led to that, and he pulled up his shirt to show me his (get this...) "nipple ring!"
RevRandy. . . . .too much info
Elissa. . . . .hahahahahaha awesome
beka. . . . .i nearly died, but contained it, and marveled as he seemed to see it as contextually appropriate.
beka. . . . .yeah.
RevRandy. . . . .hey, is that real ...... ouuuuccccchhhhhh
beka. . . . .yeah... exactly. yegads...
beka. . . . .but back to the mirrors.
angel. . . . .did you give him some mardi gras beads
RevRandy. . . . .lol
*** gus_magilke (ADCjava@206.9.111.***) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
beka. . . . .i was just trying to hold on to my own aplomb at that point. good idea....
RevRandy. . . . .well, after GT had left us with this
RevRandy. . . . .our session continued:
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "Ok, moving right along, a monarch butterfly."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,4Sandy: "Rrrrrf."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "Gone... in sublime silences of beauty. And now, CL."
gus_magilke. . . . .Hello
beka. . . . .hello gus!
RevRandy. . . . .keeping track folks? A silent hedgehog, an equally silent gazelle, and now a very quiet butterfly
beka. . . . .hmmm.. all this SILENCE
RevRandy. . . . .all in the middle of the rest of this session
RevRandy. . . . .shhhhhhhh
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15"I think I'll not talk and see if Sandy chases me. Aye.
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15The trick is to find a way to be both in your own reality
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15and also to be radically aware of the limitations of your own reality.
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15You will see with your acculturated eyes,
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15but look for the wider vision;
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15and you will hear with your tuned ears,
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15but try to also hear beyond the measured tones;
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15and you will imagine the dreams you have been allowed,
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15but also dream and remember the edges beyond where the images make no sense.
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15And don't let others make you put your sights and sounds and dreams into their schemas.
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15Remember, when someone tells you an interpretation of your dreams it is really their dream,
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15not yours.
RevRandy. . . . . 4,15And so, too, with sights and sounds.
Marie1. . . . ." The trick is to find a way to be both in your own reality " the key word, Balance!
fang. . . . .silence brings enlightenment???
RevRandy. . . . .fang - good question
beka. . . . .silence is the ceasing of categories, imposed on existence
Elissa. . . . .ooo beka you catch on fast :)
RevRandy. . . . .I sense that we are being led to this
RevRandy. . . . .through the thoughts of mirrors and images
Marie1. . . . .now that is the relationship between concave and convex. finding the balance between what you believe to the real, what is real and what the other person believes to be real.
RevRandy. . . . .and to know that if other side imposes, the image is distorted
Elissa. . . . .that makes sense, marie... i hadn't thought of them in relationship, only as different ways of perceiving
Marie1. . . . .what is real should be read, what society believes to be real. because what society, you and someone else perceives can be something different....the distorted mirror.
Marie1. . . . .elissa, that was the first point i was trying to make, but i knew it would become clearer by the end of the night. it was a thought that came into my head and now it is clearer.
Elissa. . . . .ty marie :)
bluelight. . . . .other side imposes?
bluelight. . . . .what does that mean?
RevRandy. . . . .if I impose my categories on the perception, or if the other imposes their categories on it, then there is distortion
beka. . . . .here's a concrete example of imposes:
bluelight. . . . .i c
RevRandy. . . . .it does not matter if the mirror is bent away from flatness from beneath or above or the sides
gus_magilke. . . . .what I reflect is perceived by one with different experiences
Elissa. . . . .exactly gus
beka. . . . .i'm 47. recently a much younger man asked me out. he's 30. and i demurred, citing too great a discrepancy of age.
beka. . . . .he replied, "if you're secure in yourself, you can date ANY adult you want."
beka. . . . .well now... my saying no, had NOTHING to do with me feeling insecure -- that was HIS VISION imposed on my actions. and it was incorrect for me...
RevRandy. . . . .yep , beka -
*** zeb`` (nobody@***.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .and it is hard to tell where the distortion is coming from sometimes
Elissa. . . . .yes beka, but so often we let others put us in their boxes and think they're ours, don't we
fang. . . . .amen to that elissa
beka. . . . .well, THAT is mighty uncomfortable. but to avoid it requires a lot of attention and persistence
beka. . . . .to express your own truth, and not let someone else do that to you.
Elissa. . . . .we aren't always aware of it... it can be very subtle
beka. . . . .right...
bluelight. . . . .it takes a lot of courage to speak your truth when someone puts u in a certain cubbyhole they want to c u in
gus_magilke. . . . .Elissa You described the anatomy of a control freak
beka. . . . .and it's the inner feeling of 'twist' and distortion that tells you something's really off.
RevRandy. . . . .well, now, on to a last part of the session, which brings us back to blue's question from before
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "And here's a little tiny thingie. An egg.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Shhhhh... can you hear it.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2An expectant silence. No, Sandy, don't eat it."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,4Sandy: "Rrrrrrrrf."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "Biscuits."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,4Sandy: "Aaarrrr."
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Rikkity: "So remember, silence can be small, strong, sublime, and expectant--
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2but only if you listen to it, not if you try to speak for it.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Some things were never meant to be spoken.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2Some things were never meant to be heard.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2And yet they dwell powerfully on mountain crest and in deep valley and in the heart of those
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2who pause long enough to stop being themselves and listen.
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2And that's the show. This Sunday it's ‘Mirrors.'
RevRandy. . . . . 15,2And, for all the spirits and all the animals, and especially for the magic Sandy, this is the Moo. UTV. Goodbye."
Elissa. . . . .UTV = Universal Television :)
Marie1. . . . .YES!!!
Marie1. . . . .well put :)
RevRandy. . . . .Blue -
RevRandy. . . . .you asked about how we can get beyond the limitations that keep us from our talent to see beyond the veil
RevRandy. . . . .in the silences, in the silences, when we stop talking
bluelight. . . . .yes
RevRandy. . . . .when we stop imposing our images on the screen
RevRandy. . . . .when we stop forcing the mirror to bend our way
bluelight. . . . .as in meditation ? or ...
RevRandy. . . . .as in whatever
Elissa. . . . .when we listen is when we hear
beka. . . . ."who pause long enough to stop being themselves..." PHEW!!!!!!!!!! big stuff there...
*** journey (ptomli4650@***.ipt.aol.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
beka. . . . .as in SILENCE ceasing of inner assessment, appraisal, categorization, exploration
angel. . . . .love it---in the highest mountain top, deepest valley
RevRandy. . . . .yep -
RevRandy. . . . .listening to silence, with is beyond all the categories of sound
beka. . . . .letting that which IS emerge as itself
Elissa. . . . .in counseling, we are taught that the ONLY way to understand where someone is coming from so you can help them is to LISTEN...
gus_magilke. . . . .I read it ...Gee I wonder where??? " Be still and know that I am GOD"
Marie1. . . . .silence : wooowwwwie
bluelight. . . . .yes i c
Elissa. . . . .i have a favorite saying:
Elissa. . . . ."If you're having a conversation and you hear 2 voices, stop yours."
angel. . . . .active listening
*** Jean (ADCjava@***.tnt1.bwi1.da.uu.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .yes Gus - no need to speak when that is the silence
Elissa. . . . .right angel :)
Elissa. . . . .it's silence that leads us toward the edges and horizons
RevRandy. . . . .akin to standing spiritually naked in front of the mirror, without prejudice
fang. . . . .ty rev, and ty for letting me be an op tonight ;)
RevRandy. . . . .anytime fang - lots here for the old think tank
fang. . . . .i avoid mirrors
Marie1. . . . .i am laughing because that is truly a challenge, standing naked in front of the mirror without prejudice
gus_magilke. . . . .The silence has many enemies in modern society
beka. . . . .indeed it has, gus
gus_magilke. . . . .TV, Radio, machinery of all kinds
bluelight. . . . .so do u think that is also what we receive in meditation?
Elissa. . . . .sure blue, when we listen
RevRandy. . . . .meditation is not an automatic path of this .... it can be however one of the paths
Marie1. . . . .but it is much needed for spiritual growth.
RevRandy. . . . .silence has many enemies - yes -
RevRandy. . . . .even imposed moments of silence can be the enemy of silence
beka. . . . .yes. because duty is inimical to openness at times
RevRandy. . . . .but do duty and honesty have to be at odds
beka. . . . .or strongly contrary to
beka. . . . .no they don't RR,
beka. . . . .but it depends if you have an internal spring that makes the 'duty' your truly own.
journey. . . . .i agree beka
RevRandy. . . . .in fact, maybe when they are it is a sign that we are in a "wrong" place
beka. . . . .and that feeling of 'wrong place' is what i meant earlier about seeing disturbances in the pattern, as a key to your own judgments being skewed
RevRandy. . . . .got it
RevRandy. . . . .there's a disturbance in the force, Han
beka. . . . .yep.
bluelight. . . . .meditation might help raise awareness to the mirrors?
Marie1. . . . .yes blue
journey. . . . .silence screams in your mind to be heard tho i think, it persists
Marie1. . . . .being spiritually naked without prejudice reminds us that God sees each of us as equals. We are no greater than the other person. We may lead different lives, do different things, but when it comes down to it, we are all humans and alike.
TF88. . . . .but sometimes silence is a matter of focusing
fang. . . . .can meditation be like driving in silence in the car ?
RevRandy. . . . .from "Hair" ....Silence tell me secretly, everything
bluelight. . . . .fang b careful of meditating in the car ..
TF88. . . . .fang, ideally meditation is complete focus
gus_magilke. . . . .could meet God head on
bluelight. . . . .TF i'd like to hear more about focused meditation
TF88. . . . .happy to talk with you sometime blue
fang. . . . .inimical =hostile , unfriendly ( sorry it takes me forever, )lol
Elissa. . . . .i love this: "15and you will imagine the dreams you have been allowed,
Elissa. . . . .4,15but also dream and remember the edges beyond where the images make no sense.
journey. . . . .always a stepping stone
Elissa. . . . .hey journey :)
journey. . . . .hi elissa and rev, sorry to have missed you all, life busy, but glad to be back
bluelight. . . . .we're so deep in here :0
RevRandy. . . . .so that's the word to us from the "other side" which, by the mirror analogy, is not anywhere other than here
bluelight. . . . .time for us all to b silent ..shhhhhhh
Elissa. . . . .i remember many dreams that partially made sense, but then there were those wonderful edges! now i'll focus on remembering them
Elissa. . . . .ok shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
RevRandy. . . . .how about edges with fringes
Elissa. . . . .randy's not good at silence lol
RevRandy. . . . .YES I AM
Elissa. . . . .hahaha
fang. . . . .but the screen will be blank then ;(
Elissa. . . . .blank is beautiful
RevRandy. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .(Elissa)
journey. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .so any last minute ponderings out there? speak them while ye may!
bluelight. . . . .i wish i could think of a situation in my life but when i do ya'll won't b here
bluelight. . . . .yes .. trying to fit it to my life
RevRandy. . . . .it will happen when it happens
bluelight. . . . .think everyone must apply it but me
beka. . . . .what "it"
fang. . . . .my idea light burnt out lol
Elissa. . . . .lol fang has fizzled
journey. . . . .i would like to say that mirrors as such have been a great source of growth for me
Elissa. . . . .how so, journey?
*** Samiam (sparky@***.modem.capital.net) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
journey. . . . .in that the people i simply "can't stand" seem to have overtime shown me i "am" just a tich that way and i have learned from them
journey. . . . .to see myself in more open light and less critical and more critical, and have become more accepting
journey. . . . .of myself
Elissa. . . . .have you learned to see things in them that you value in yourself?
journey. . . . .yes, but always at first the things i cant stand in myself, which i found we shared
journey. . . . .and then the giggles and laughs and mended fences even recognizing you DO have similarities
journey. . . . .even the ones you dislike
Elissa. . . . .this is so important when we approach someone from a different culture... we can totally misinterpret who that person is if we're not aware of the mirror we're using
Elissa. . . . .wonderful journey
journey. . . . .so i wanted to thank you for sharing that email with me and bringing me to this realization
Elissa. . . . .you're most welcome
beka. . . . .yes indeed a journey, journey
journey. . . . .i just think..."wow please tell your rikkity and group THanKS"
RevRandy. . . . .ty
Elissa. . . . .you can tell them yourself, journey :)
journey. . . . .I have..just wanting to let you know too
bluelight. . . . .when someone tells a lie wanting u to believe it to get even with someone else how does this mirror u?
bluelight. . . . .trying to apply mirrors here
RevRandy. . . . .if you believe it not because it is true, but because you want to keep your relationship to the liar, then.....
Elissa. . . . .i'm confused
RevRandy. . . . .I'm me
RevRandy. . . . .it's time
Elissa. . . . .no, i'm me!
RevRandy. . . . .no, I'm ME!
beka. . . . .you two....
fang. . . . .i'm ya'll lol
bluelight. . . . .i realized it was a lie and i spoke up ..
RevRandy. . . . .good - and that was what you mirrored
RevRandy. . . . .just her!
Elissa. . . . .being yourself is the key, blue... always
journey. . . . .bluelight, you may want to believe, it is crossroads of sorts to me, your choice
bluelight. . . . .what did i mirror?
journey. . . . ."wanting to be told", or "questioning if you should"
Marie1. . . . .you mirrored her trueness
bluelight. . . . .that's what i felt like when i spoke up so being true to me .. but i don't c the mirror
bluelight. . . . .Marie she wasn't being true at all
beka. . . . .(RR, i think you're using 'mirror' in multiple senses )
RevRandy. . . . .I am using many mirrors
beka. . . . .flash, zippp
bluelight. . . . .i'm lost
RevRandy. . . . .no, you are found
Marie1. . . . .but by mirroring her trueness, you reminded her of what is true within her, not what she speaks that is untrue
bluelight. . . . .that's a point marie..i'm hoping for this
gus_magilke. . . . .cool
journey. . . . .in any moment of truth you are always being asked by yourself to yourself "what is true", what will i accept as true..is over and over again in all minds i think
Marie1. . . . .keep doing it, and pray for her then leave it at that. do not become taken in by it because then it affect your mirror judgement :)
RevRandy. . . . .but, now folks, it is time
RevRandy. . . . .to bring this to a close
RevRandy. . . . .until next sunday night
Elissa. . . . .ok rainbow song time if i don't get booted :)
Elissa. . . . . 13,0!Elissa rainbow.mid 0,13 :o)
beka. . . . .timetago
RevRandy. . . . .niteall
gus_magilke. . . . .nite rev
fang. . . . .night randy ty
beka. . . . .g'night all
RevRandy. . . . .night, and thank you
Elissa. . . . .goodnight all and thank you for joining us tonight! it was a discussion i'll be pondering for a long time :)
gus_magilke. . . . .nite folks
journey. . . . .nite all and next time i shall be early bird
journey. . . . .missed being here
RevRandy. . . . .worms served at 8:55
journey. . . . .ick
bluelight. . . . .thanks for a wonderful evening E and RR
RevRandy. . . . .yw
bluelight. . . . .thank u Marie and journey for your helpful input
fang. . . . .how about steak at 8:55 lol
journey. . . . .nite elissa, thanks again
fang. . . . .ok i'm out of here god bless
Marie1. . . . .thanks for being patient with me while i typed
Elissa. . . . .nite all, love you!
bluelight. . . . .that mirror thing can really confuse me sometimes .. this helped tonite
Session Close: Sun Feb 27 23:07:59 2000